{"id":12239,"date":"2025-11-13T09:03:14","date_gmt":"2025-11-13T09:03:14","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.goonerholicsforever.com\/?p=12239"},"modified":"2025-11-15T13:01:38","modified_gmt":"2025-11-15T13:01:38","slug":"big-club-my-arsenal","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.goonerholicsforever.com\/?p=12239","title":{"rendered":"\u201cBig Club\u201d? My Arsenal!"},"content":{"rendered":"\n
\"\"
Avenell Road 8th<\/sup> November 1930: As Far As The Eye Can See\u2026<\/em><\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n

How many times have you heard during commentary \u201cof course, XYZ FC are a big club\u201d?  The idea of the \u201cBig Club\u201d is often presented to us as a matter of fact. Usually delivered by some pundit or other, whose skills are almost invariably as a player and whose analytical abilities, as shown in coaching \/ managing roles as well as poor attempts on tv, are at best negligible. It baffles me why anyone should pay attention to the ramblings of the likes of Rooney, who, when you can understand what he\u2019s saying, talks in third-rate soundbites and hackneyed phrases. Much less the likes of Gary Neville, whose only consistency appears to be in finding ever more contrived, bizarre ways to tell you not to believe the evidence of tv cameras. Or journalists simply following instructions and providing click bait, shock-jock level analysis, designed to generate \u201cengagement,\u201d otherwise known as revenue generation for the person \/ media outlet in question. Hugh McIlvanney, where art thou? <\/p>\n\n\n\n

As with so many things in real life, the reality of the \u201cBig Club\u201d is less black and white, more multi-dimensional, nuanced. Clubs are described as \u201cBig\u201d with no clarification as to what that means. So, what are the actual criteria for being a \u201cBig Club\u201d? <\/p>\n\n\n\n

I won\u2019t try to produce a mathematically and statistically precise model. Rather I will try to set out the main characteristics which I believe go towards categorising clubs in this way, focusing on the tangibles. As I see it, there are a number of components which feed into the equation. They are not weighted equally. To use Orwell\u2019s famous phrase, \u201csome are more equal than others\u201d. I will attempt to work through them in decreasing order of importance. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

The single most important constituent of the formula is success as measured by sheer numbers of titles. I refer to domestic and European titles \u2013 forgive me for excluding other regions of the world, about the football of which I know nothing. Taking this as the primary filter, there are clubs which clearly fit the description. These are the behemoths of European football. It is impossible not to class Real Madrid, Juventus Internazionale, AC Milan, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, Ajax, Liverpool and Manchester United in the top drawer. These are clubs with a massive history of domestic and European success.  <\/p>\n\n\n\n

  1. Real Madrid: 36 titles; 14 EC <\/li>
  2. Internazionale: 20 titles; 3 EC <\/li>
  3. Barcelona: 28 titles; 5 EC <\/li>
  4. Bayern Munich: 34 titles; 6 EC <\/li>
  5. Man United: 20 titles; 3 EC <\/li>
  6. Liverpool: 20 titles; 6 EC <\/li>
  7. Juventus: 36 titles; 2 EC <\/li>
  8. Ajax: 36 titles; 4 EC. <\/li><\/ol>\n\n\n\n

    The sheer numbers take the breath away. Perhaps Ajax is an outlier there, with their last European Cup \/ Champions league victory being 30 years ago, and because they play in a not-terribly competitive league. On balance I include them as they meet the rest of the criteria below, to greater or lesser extents. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Those who have achieved many domestic titles, but fewer European successes score less highly in this category but have to be included. Let us start with those who have won the European Cup, even if just the once.  How can we not include the likes of Villa, Forest and Celtic? Who amongst us, of a certain vintage, can forget the Villa of Mortimer, Morley and Shaw? The Forest of Clough, McGovern, Withe and Robertson?  The Celtic of Jock Stein, Tommy Gemmell and Jimmy Johnstone? – the first UK winners of the competition and indeed the first Northern European winners according to the truth engine that is Wikipedia. Although I, and many Northern Italians, would venture to suggest that Milan is certainly Northern and not Southern Europe.  <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Unfortunately, and as distasteful as it may seem, we have to include both FC Chelski 2003 – 6 league titles, only 1 before Abramovich and 2 CL\u2019s, none before Abramovich; and FC Manchester C130y -10 Premier League titles, 2 before the oil money arrived (the last of which was in 1968) and 1 CL, in no way down to the influx of money. It would be churlish to exclude them, dubious as the provenance of their European and domestic histories are. Paris St Germain, only formed in 1970 are another example. The recency bias I propose to include in the algorithm, which works against Ajax, works for<\/em> these otherwise insignificant clubs. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Once we strip out European competition \u2013 and for the purposes of this exercise I have excluded minor competitions, which I define as all those below the Champions League in Europe and below the principal domestic cup in England \u2013 we look at the clubs with a record of domestic success. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Arsenal meet these criteria with 13 league title wins and a record 14 FA Cups.  Everton have 9 league titles and 5 FA Cup wins. Both haven\u2019t been out of the top-flight for a long time, in Arsenal\u2019s case in living memory. Others, however, are often included under the \u201cBig Club\u201d banner, but have far less to crow about. Spurs have 2 league titles, the last one as we know more than 60 years ago. They have 8 FA Cup wins, the last being 34 years ago. Newcastle have 6 FA cup wins, the last in 1955 and only 4 league titles, the last in 1927.  Blackburn Rovers have the same number of FA Cup wins as Newcastle and only one league title fewer. Is anyone calling them a \u201cBig Club\u201d?  A storied club. A club with a great deal of history, for sure, but a big club?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

    The component which figures next, and which in modern times has risen in importance in our hypothetical equation, is that of filthy lucre. The days of clubs being owned by the local butcher, baker or candlestick maker done-good are well and truly over.  As football has grown in popularity, as the football world has grown wealthier, more interlinked, the forces of progress have enabled an evolution in terms of the finances supporting football and in particular the clubs in Europe. To the extent that they are now owned by states, or their sovereign wealth funds, hedge funds or billionaires.  In turn, this has enabled those clubs to put distance between themselves and the bunch in terms of the players they can buy and the infrastructure \u2013 physical, organisational, human \u2013 they can deploy.  <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    The difference between the English top-flight and the European leagues becomes most apparent here. Many of the Premier League clubs, certainly those who have longevity in the division, now have the resources to compete strongly, as we have seen with the success in European competition over the last 10 years. This, I suspect, is a component of our equation which is becoming stronger. However, until it delivers the requisite success as mentioned above, it is not enough for me on its own to push clubs into the bracket we are discussing. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Sheer numbers of fans, both through the turnstiles and in terms of size, number and dispersion of fan clubs is also a component.  This is, of course, linked to financial power. The difficulty here is in the latter two classes which are easily manipulated and difficult to verify. Undoubtedly Manchester United and Liverpool have massive overseas fan clubs. You only have to travel to Asia to see the support these two have, way in excess of any other. Other clubs are playing catch-up, but overseas tv revenue is huge. Of course, this is equally split giving of itself no advantage within the Premier League. I would like to see how many worldwide supporters actually buy genuine club merchandise. Bums on seats is the real measure here and the sheer size of football grounds, regularly filled, helps propel some clubs into the next rung on the ladder.  Newcastle regularly fill their ground. Of course, bar Sunderland, they have no other professional club within 30 miles. The next closest is Middlesbrough, nearly 40 miles away. It is easy to pull in a crowd when you have a huge, unopposed catchment area.   <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Finally, there is something to be said for including some clubs as \u201cBig\u201d on the basis of a storied past. I\u2019m afraid these don\u2019t make the cut for me.  The same recency bias I factored into the success criterion above comes into play here as well. Factors such as when these clubs were last in the top division, when they last achieved success. It is truly sad to see the lowly standing and travails of clubs such as Sheffield Wednesday. Perhaps a more accurate description for these would be historic clubs. Clubs with a big past, playing huge roles in the history of British football, and thus providing the bedrock for the modern Premier League in particular. As such they are to be valued and cherished. Huddersfield Town have won  3 league titles. These were on the spin. Like another club I could mention. This is only 1 fewer league title than Newcastle, 1 more than Spurs. But the last was in 1926. Preston have won the league twice, the last time in 1890. To apply the designation \u201cBig Club\u201d is to my mind patronising and inaccurate in equal measure.  I do not make these points to ridicule these great clubs. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    Our Arsenal still have some way to go to get into the ultra-elite. I believe Mikel, backed by a hugely supportive board, are on their way to doing it. There are other clubs which I seriously doubt will ever make it.  You know who you are. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

    So, thoughts? <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

    How many times have you heard during commentary \u201cof course, XYZ FC are a big club\u201d?  The idea of the \u201cBig Club\u201d is often presented to us as a matter of fact. Usually delivered by some pundit or other, whose skills are almost invariably as a player and whose analytical abilities, as shown in coaching \/ managing roles as well as poor attempts on tv, are at […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":20,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[33,3,28,10],"tags":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.goonerholicsforever.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12239"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.goonerholicsforever.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.goonerholicsforever.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.goonerholicsforever.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/20"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.goonerholicsforever.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=12239"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/www.goonerholicsforever.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12239\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":12268,"href":"https:\/\/www.goonerholicsforever.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12239\/revisions\/12268"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.goonerholicsforever.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=12239"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.goonerholicsforever.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=12239"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.goonerholicsforever.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=12239"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}