There’s been much discussion lately over the use of scouts, data analysis and dare I mention them, agents as the best way to assess players and transfer targets.
When it comes to goalkeepers, most people will point immediately to the number of clean sheets achieved over a season and as a keeper advances in years, even over a career. This seemed to happen a lot in the case of Peter Cech, but does it really have any meaning? Cech began his Premier League career under the correctly despised Mourinho, behind the meanest defence of the day. He later played for Arsene Wenger who had a somewhat more relaxed attitude to protecting the goal – and as a consequence, the keeper found himself somewhat more exposed.
Did that mean he was a worse keeper at Arsenal? How much did age and slowing reactions have to do with it? How long did it take him to adapt to the different landmarks and metrics at the Emirates compared to the years getting tuned in to Stamford Bridge?
Thus, goalkeeping stats need to be carefully considered when assessing a keeper – and there is no shortage of them. It is hard to make comparisons for this season – Bernd Leno played a chunk more than the first half of the season behind Unai Emery’s chaotic and ever changing rear-guard and as we know, was replaced of necessity by Emiliano Martinez following a serious knee injury in the Cup tie at Brighton. Martinez has enjoyed the relative luxury of a more stable selection and formation (and organised!) in front of him, but Dixon, Keown, Adams and Winterburn it was not!
I have condensed the stats down to the following for those who like them:
| Bernd Leno | Emi Martinez | |
| Age | 27 | 27 |
| Height (cm) | 190 | 193 |
| Weight (kg) | 79 | 85 |
| Premier League Starts | 30 | 8 |
| Premier League Minutes | 2,649 | 771 |
| Goals Against | 39 | 9 |
| Goals Conceded/90 Minutes | 1.33 | 1.05 |
| Shots Against | 147 | 42 |
| Saves | 110 | 33 |
| Saves % | 0.776 | 0.810 |
| Clean Sheets | 7 | 3 |
| % Clean Sheets | 23.3 | 37.5 |
Stats for the various cup games compare similarly but I will not torture you with more figures – especially considering all the variables involved.
So, what does it all mean? All the figures point to Martinez actually being slightly better than Leno all round. However, Leno’s figures were achieved over many more matches, so does that mean he is more consistent than Martinez? That has to be a matter of conjecture and debate, so I guess as more of a “scout” than a statistician, it comes down to gut feeling – what you like – what you see…
I think we have two truly excellent goalkeepers, both of whom have performed miracles behind some frequently woeful defending. Overall, I feel that Martinez just gives us that little bit extra in terms of height, aerial dominance and reach – he is a “unit” not to be messed with when the likes of Burnley, Sheffield United and Watford are on the lookout for “cojones”. Both are brilliant shot stoppers and very good with their feet, which is very important in a modern keeper. My gut feeling is that I am just that tiny bit more confident with Martinez in goal.
I truly hope the club can hang on to both of them although neither is now going to be content sitting on the bench as a Number Two. If the club (not the owner!) has to raise money by selling one, who would you choose to sell?
I would hate to make the choice but would go with “gut feeling” – both mine and Martinez’s, who burst into tears twice, trying to explain what winning the FA Cup with The Arsenal meant to him after ten years and six loan spells, honing his trade around the leagues.
Martinez will do for me, although we cannot forget that it was largely Bernd Leno who got us to that Final (and kept us in the top half of the league table by saving points whilst every opponent was being given innumerable opportunities to score).
Super seasons for both of them but sometimes life, football and choices are tough.
Footnote: The decision about which of these ‘keepers is first choice and the inevitable corollary of which will be sold, will be postponed for at least 6 months with the bad news that Bernd Leno’s previously dislocated knee did not stand up to his return to training before the FA Cup Final. Moreover, he requires further medical input. Our thoughts are with Bernd for a full and speedy recovery from this set-back. Bernd probably feels that Guendouzi didn’t squeeze hard enough! There have also been reports that the club is looking to sign a back-up for Martinez for the start of the new season. Finally, after many years of febrile anticipation, we may sign the long-awaited Shay Given!
Excellent summary of the current
situation Trev, thanks!
Would Bernd’s dislocated knee
really be 6 months out?
Trev should know if anyone does
but anyway if confirmed it’s very
unlucky.
Isn’t Macey ready? I’d rather give
him a chance as back-up than sign
someone.
Great summary Trev and the stats tell an interesting story .
I think Emi earned his medal and I think back to that terrific tie with Leeds where he kept us in the game in the first half. I think he played all the Cup ties and the only bad game he had was up at Anfield . His ‘ area management ‘ is more impressive than Leno’s And Leno is not impressive under crosses ( remember Chelsea at home?).
Looks like injury has made Arteta’s initial decision for him. Was our initial diagnosis too optimistic?
A fine start to our our player analysis
Scruz,
Thanks for your kind words on the last piece. I’d love to share a game with you again soon
To be honest, Matt, I don’t know what the prognosis is – Bath added that last bit to the post.
With any dislocation the real problem lies in the collateral damage and we don’t know what that is. A dislocation of the knee could involve cartilage, ligament, tendon or even bone damage. Fingers crossed time 🤞🏻
Excellent piece Trev. I too am very impressed with Martinez. I was astonished to learn he has been at the club for a decade. Why did we have to put up with shorty Ospina? I do fear that snide little push from the rat-faced Brighton forward may have serious consequences for Leno’s future let alone his position as first choice keeper at the Arsenal.
Both have been quite excellent. I can only recall one error from Leno and that was at the Bridge. Even David Seaman dropped the odd rick. I like the look of the very tall Macey and would have him as number two keeper while Leno heals.
Very good indeed, Trev.
Given’s the man I’ve been hoping to see between our sticks for years. Come on down, Shay!
Terrible news about Leno.
I am a Martinez advocate. I was at Reading when he shipped more goals than I could count and we still won by scoring seven. On that day I suspected I’d never see him in an Arsenal strip again. My perspective has changed completely and I think his tendency to err on a brain fart is 0.01876 less than Bernd’s. “Argentina’s Number One, Number One, Number one.”
Yes, C100, what’s the point of Macey if not to deputise when one of our three is crocked.
“All we are saying, is give Matt a chance”
LENO OUT.
Seriously though, he’s not a patch on Martinez at handling crosses and the thing I really like about Emi is that he stops shots. And by that I mean the ball’s like glue in his hands and there’s none of this fisting it away when it’s an easy catch nonsense.
So for me he shades it and should be first choice.
That is a fine assessment of two very good goal keepers Trev. It is one of the few areas of the squad where two players are genuinely competing for a place now. The last bit of the article about Leno’s injury is a real dampener though. If both were fit, we should still have kept them both because the season is going to have a late start and that would mean fixtures coming thick and fast, especially now that we have the Europa league too. We could have rotated the keepers enough to keep them both happy.
As pointed out by Trev in the article and also in the above drinks, Martinez does indeed seem to have a better command of the box on corners and set pieces. Emi’s distribution also might be slightly better than Leno because he can play with both feet. One area where Leno seems to have an edge is situations when the goalee has to rush towards a striker and make himself big to narrow down the angle of the shot. Leno does that particular gig really well and is one of the quickest to close down the angles. Another great quality of Leno is his consistency and complete lack of jitters after a big error or goal. The very few times his errors have led to goals, Leno has moved on seamlessly from those and not let the errors affect his performances even in the same game, let alone subsequent ones. Goalkeepers can go through some bad patches after mistakes but Leno is super composed and consistent on that front. A longer run of games for Emi would reveal how he fares on that front.
Thanks for the kind words and interesting and perspicacious replies – despite the piece being filed under “Waffle” ! 😱
Not sure there’s a category for learned analysis Trev. Waffle it is then!
I’ve always liked Martinez and felt he needed a run in the team to get established. By all accounts, his loan to Reading was transformative, both because he played well but also because it instilled in him the desire to be a No 1. As your excellent comparison implies, Trev, the question is whether Martinez can perform as consistently well as he did in the tail end of the season over a longer run of games. It seems that the relapse suffered by Auba’s runner-up as the club’s player of the year will provide Emi with that opportunity to show us one way or another.
Thanks Trev for an excellent and insightful run-down with everything that needed to be said, as far as this eye can see. Bad news about Leno, who had a top-rate season until injury, but I was certainly very pleasantly surprised by Martinez’s excellent keeping down the stretch, so we seem to be in very good hands at the moment keeper-wise, something we have not been particularly for much of the recent times I can remember.
Agreed with ‘desi’gner gooner about his points in favour of Leno, but Martinez also showed great maturity in the matches he played. When we consider all his other club and international experience, I would expect him to demonstrate similar unflappability in the face of adversity. If only Fabianski had done the same.
Excellent analysis Trev!
I am in support of keeping them both even when Leno regains full fitness. Emi can start the next season as the league keeper and Bernd once back as the cup keeper. Emi hasn’t yet been tested with us for consistency over a longer period of time. (He did have a very consistent season for Reading on loan). We don’t yet know how he recovers from bad mistakes. How his concentration holds up as the games come thick and fast over the winter period. And then there is always the chance of an injury to him.
I think having two very high quality goalkeepers is something to build on. We don’t have to change our ways of playing if one needs to be replaced by the other due to loss of form or injury. They can rotate between league and cup competitions — League Cup, Europa, FA — of which there will be a lot of games, and can really push each other towards excellence. Let us keep them both together at least for a year (preferably two) or so and meanwhile look for a capable #2 in case after that year we do need to make a decision to cash in on one of them.
I read somewhere that Joe Montemurro rotates his goalkeepers depending on what sort of distribution (long or short) he thinks will be most effective against the opposition being faced. Would that work for the men’s team?
Agree with all of that Dr F but I
think the problem will be that
one will want to leave at the
end of the season.
Still a season with two good
keepers is not to be sniffed at
and it’s a rarity these days.
Cheers Trev! Excellent piece.
Just one thing – was not a cup tie at Brighton. We lost remember?
General opinion – I marginally prefer Emi, but its a very close run thing. Think Leno was superb behind a genuine bag of shite defence for much of the season. But if an offer was to come in for him – I would sell. Imho more likely to get an offer for Emi.
Thanks Trev for reviewing the net worth of the goalies. Bernd was possibly our best player prior to his injury and Emi has played just as well since he took over. Of the 2 I favour Emi
mainly due to his keeping at corners – he comes and collects the in swinging balls whereas Bernd flaps and punches, this can result in non clearances and continuing danger. It’s a good situation to have 2 top keepers – we’ve had too many keepers these past few years who have not been top qualities. I doubt if either will want to spend too much playing second fiddle so it’s a bonus that may not stay beyond another season.
The back of the envelope calculations suggest that Leno’s market value is four times that of Emi. In current circumstances, that would probably tip the balance of any discussion about which one we should sell.
Was going to suggest that Atalanta must have made it to the CL quarterfinals by benefitting from a series of Sicilian Mafia-backed refereeing decisions, but it turns out they are from the northern Italian city of Bergamot, where as we are all quite aware, the Mafia has nothing going on. Bergamot was also the capital of death by Covid in Italy. Weird stuff.
Sky Sports reports Spurs’ potential EL qualifying opponents, and I have not heard of any of them. Misery loves company, as the saying goes.
Kesla FK (Azerbaijan) Torshavn (Faroe Islands) Neftchi Baku (Azerbaijan) Kaysar Kyzylorda (Kazakhstan) Ordabasy Shymkent (Kazakhstan) Sutjeska Niksic (Montenegro) OFI Heraklion (Crete, Greece) FK Riteriai (Lithuania) FH Hafnarfjardar (Iceland) Santa Coloma (Andorra) Shakhtyor Soligorsk (Belarus) Kalju Nomme (Estonia) Backa Topola (Serbia) Vojvodina Novi Sad (Serbia)
Very fine and fair review of our ‘ Keeper situation, Trev. Sad to read that Leno had a setback in his recovery. Generally, I think he is the better of the two even though his clean sheets ratio isn’t as good as Emi’s.
He probably won’t be keeping any clean sheets tonight though because he just got married to his girlfriend less than 24 hours ago. 😉
Talking of footballers and their spouses, apparently Atalanta’s star man, Josep Ilicic, allegedly caught his wife in bed with another man. He is said to be so distraught the club had to allow him take the rest of season off and travel back him to Slovenia in hopes that time with his family will get him in the right shape of mind for next season.
I wonder if Atalanta would have advanced against PSG if they had him available.
Morning all and thanks all too !
Oops, Esso ! Quite correct ! My excuse is that it was all written on holiday – I was literally on the beach 🙃
@4
Thanks Trev. I’m not sure the
second opinion is in yet. As
you say fingers crossed. Perhaps
a little doggerel will cheer him up
Guten morgen Bernd
I hope you learned
That your knee
Is injury free
Don’t be sorry
No need to worry
Cos if it’s not
Emi’s got your spot
@23 bt8 – thanks for the list.
Hahahahahahahaha
It will make my autumn if the
spuds get humiliated in Andorra
by Santa 🎅
Especially if they fail to score. I can see the headlines now.
SANTA COLOMA BLANKA
Top work Ned.
Hopefully they will have to quarantine after travel and won’t be able to play for fourteen days . There are Totts fans saying they had a better season than us. Not from where I’m sitting
Interesting interview with Ozil by Ornstein in The Athletic (£££). “I don’t want to leave so that’s it”. https://theathletic.com/1991627/2020/08/13/mesut-ozil-exclusive-pay-cut-arsenal-contract-job-losses-mikel-arteta-muslim-lives-matter/?source=user_shared_article
Edited highlights are on other free news sites. Basically he’s Hyman Roth from Godfather II.
“I’m a retired footballer, living on a pension”
While I’m still uncomfortable about the sacking of good Arsenal employees like Cagigao I have been told that the big scouting networks that we had built up are old- fashioned and unwieldy . This series of articles ( this is the third and there are links to the other two at the end) underlines that the rise of data analytics and the evolution of the role of super- agent mean that a lot of the old scouting functions are at best outmoded and to a significant extent, redundant .
One thing ( which the article makes clear ) is that to sign the best players you need to maintain positive agent links and Arsene found this process abhorrent because he thought a lot of them were jackals. Possibly our new leaders are less picky about the company they keep and this might work to our advantage.
Certainly through watching my grandson play county colts football I still run across plenty of scouts and lots of pushy parents trying to locate them . The system for kids is pretty brutal. My grandson played a year at Brighton ( at age eight !) and then the whole of his group were released. It’s necessarily a very competitive and ruthless business . Butbtye rewards are potentially huge for the lucky few
Here’s Arseblog’s take on the Ozil interview https://arseblog.news/2020/08/ozil-i-dont-want-to-leave-so-thats-it/
Cynic and I are not always ad idem on matters concerning Arsenal but I’m pretty close to him on Ozil. I accept he needed a platform to present his case but I don’t accept the overall arguments he puts forward .
Firstly, the idea he had other options when he signed that contract in 2018 that would have given him more money . Yeah right . Possibly if he wished to be banished to Chinese or MLS football but mainstream football…not a chance .
Secondly he presents himself as a victim. Poor old Mesut ..every manager drops him when he is fit and willing to play. How many away games has he missed over the years with colds or unspecified back problems? Arteta refers to him as not being ‘ on the boat’ and his stance on the pay cut underlines that he is not . Hard to imply that you have huge financial decisions to make on £350 k a week . Hearts bleed for the poor misunderstood boy.
Finally his metrics have been poor . I think he had one assist and one goal last season and in many games he was invisible. Notably he was wonderful against United on New Year’s Day covering the most ground and getting in the most tackles . Arteta gave him a chance and doesn’t believe he is right to play in this team .
Just a small, final point. If you love the club so much go and support them in the Cup Final with your mates on crutches who couldn’t play, don’t piss off back to Turkey .
Cynic, thanks – interesting stuff.
Maybe a lot more to it than meets the disgruntled eye ….
“I’ll give everything I have for this club,”
It’s never too late to start I suppose.
TTG @32, a very interesting link to a plausible argument. Thanks for sharing.
CM100 @33, thanks for that link as I chose the Atlantic over the Athletic for my new subscription!
I’m thoroughly fed up of Özil and his PR Department. He has failed at Arsenal under three coaches. If he likes London and wants to stay on his Arsenal contract until June ’21, I would do a deal with Millwall and send him to play for them. That’s his Arsenal job for 20/21: play for Millwall and help get them promoted. A longer commute but I’m very confident that his salary can stretch to the extra petrol. It can be added to his list of charitable gestures to alleviate third world suffering.
Yes, TTG @ 32 👍🏻
Wasn’t the outdated and bloated scouting setup one of the reasons Mislintat fell out with The High Ups, in that he wanted to get rid and they wanted to keep it in place?
I may have asked this before but me short term memory is gone these days.
TTG, thanks for the link to the articles about the transfer of the scouting function to agents. The change mirrors how industry switched what was once regarded as core functions of firms into outsourced services, and how digital technology can disrupt so many job functions. As with manufacturing, there will no doubt be unintended consequences in football. It seems inevitable that some, probably a lot of the market power of clubs over talent will shift further to agents.
On Ozil, you do him a slight disservice. He had one goal and three assists in all competitions last season. That, though, is far from the heady days of 2016-17 when he scored 12 goals and had 14 assists. I remain more ambiguous about his situation than you or Cynic. Not all of it is of his own making. I can understand why he feels he doesn’t have to repair the parts that are not. That said, it is an undesirable situation. If Arteta doesn’t want Ozil for next season and the player declines to move on voluntarily, as is his right, then pay off his contract. Better that and be done, than have Ozil sitting around for the full year giving pious interviews.
Cynic, I seem to remember that it was more a clash between Mislintat, who had reportedly been promised a technical director or head of football role, and Sanllehi who decided he fancied the job himself.
If that was the case, it’s clear who won.
“if that was the case, it’s clear who won”
Was it The Arsenal?
@28
😃 Fingers crossed cynic
Leipzig left it to the New Yorker to nudge them into a Champions League semifinal. In case your question is “Who?” as it was for me,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Adams
thanks bt8, I had never heard
of him. 136 career games,
4 goals. Unlucky for
Athletico 😃
However I’d like Leipzig to
make the final, preferably
vs Lyon
So Willian is a done deal. I wasn’t enthusiastic, but now he’s pulling on the red and white shirt, I’ll support him whole heartedly.
This is a good analysis of what he brings to the Arsenal:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/08/14/willian-arsenal-will-play-will-bring-drops-gunners-starting/
Welcome to Willian.
Hope it works out well.
MA thinks he can play in
various positions so I guess
he’s a threat to several of
our front players.
He’ll play on the left. we’re stuck with Pepe on the right and then Aubameyang will be central, if he stays.
Or not 🙂
He won’t play on the left he will be number 10.
Wecarent stuck with Pepe he was excellent in the big Cup games and we have alternatives any way
I think Willian will win a lot of people over. He can play 7, 11, 10 and even false 9. His versatility, skill-set, creativity, occasional goals, PL experience and work off the ball will be a major asset to this team. The absence of a fee up front (if you’re not aware, we are skint and need to prioritise a defensive midfielder/CB) justifies the £5m of the third year. His fitness record and football intelligence suggests he may still be useful to us in his third season though he will clearly have no resale value. However he has apparently been mentoring the younger players at Chavski very well and is a good example of how hard a creative player should work offf the ball.
It’s enough for me that MA8 wants him but I also see what he wants from him and why he hasn’t used the £15m resource to sign a promising kid..
bath@47: thanks for the link from the Telegraph. An accurate summary of what our new No 10 brings to the table. Interesting to read in passing that the still-settling Pepe and the immovably settled Ozil were the team’s two leading chance-creaters last season.
It would be fascinating to know how Willian’s contract is structured. It has been reported that the package is worth £34.2 million over the three years. The other reported data point is the £5 million before bonuses guaranteed for the final year, which is still £100,000 a week. Assuming that is the basic salary across the contract, that still leaves £19 million unaccounted for. Let’s guess a substantial chunk of that, £10 million-15 million, is an up-front signing-on fee, which would still leave a plump cushion for bonuses.
Ned @53, Untold Arsenal have an interesting analysis of the cost of Willian’s trip across the city. I won’t add the link as that seems to often stop a post appearing but it’s near the top of the Highbury Library at the moment. It does suggest if he doesn’t play much in the second or third season the cost will be substantially less than the £34.2 million quoted.
I like to think our contracts department has learnt their lessons as evidenced by the Ramsey and LJW episodes.
Wherever Willian plays he can be useful
I think and we just have to hope it
works out with his age. His wages may be 15m
over 3 years but that doesn’t include what
I’d guess is a hefty signing on fee.
If Auba does renew then I guess
Laca will be the one to go.
Does Willian for Laca make us
stronger?
Willian can be a mentor to the youngsters like Nelson, Willock and Pepe, as Luiz has been to our young defenders and Cech to our goalkeepers, but I detect a pattern here. Hoping Luiz and Willian don’t return tout de suite to the bus stop.
oh, thanks Ned, Bath.
I was writing and didn’t see
your posts. Anyway, we don’t
have to guess at the extras
now.
Hello all. I haven’t been in the bar since the cup final so I have first to congratulate Countryman on a top notch review, TTG on his magnificent two part season review, and Trev for this piece about goalkeepers which he even got his stats out for! Impressive output all round. Cheers all.
Also, I must say- WE WON THE FUCKING CUP!
And I had the hangover that proved it.
Welcome Willian.
I reckon the plan is to go four at the back and play Willian at 10 in a three man midfield. And allow him to cover the wide positions when needed. I also wonder if he might even be deployed at 8 at times? I doubt he will be bumping Saka or Martinelli out of a left wing spot. Certainly he won’t be ahead of Auba, so if Willian is on the left then Auba will be up top. Neither can I see him taking Pepe’s place. And I don’t think we gave him this contract to be a backup. He is presumably going into the starting eleven. So I think we will see him centrally.
Arteta will get a lot from him and if the boss is as keen as he seems then I’m up for it.
Baff @54. I read the piece. One thing that struck me as odd was the suggestion that if we had payed a 20 million fee we would have payed him the average PL wage of roughly 2.9 million a year. Which is about £55,000 a week. No way you get Willian for anything like that. A performer of his level will always command a lot more, regardless of what you paid for him. So, if anything, the article overestimates the situation significantly in suggesting we paid 6 million over the odds. Whatever his contract is, and regardless of his lack of resale value, we are doing fine out of this deal, as long as he puts in numbers like he has at Chelsea.
Or improves under Arteta’s inspired tutelage, obviously!
Does anyone (TTG?) know what this is all about? Why release this news to the press?
https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/arsenal-investigate-nicolas-pepe-transfer-overpaid-246612
C100
I believe that Tim Lewis the lawyer brought onto the board is basically auditing the club . Everyone who follows Arsenal knows that we signed Pepe because the guy who owns Lille is a huge friend of Sanllehi and he allowed us to pay the ( huge) fee in instalments . Emery was keener on Zaha . We probably overpaid but doesn’t Josh Kroenke sign off all fees of this magnitude? Pepe was a very hot property in the market last summer and that may be the only way we could sign him . Anyway , shouldn’t this have been talked through then at board level?
Willian’s signing is interesting in the light of this . I was phoned three weeks ago by a friend who is very close to Chelsea ( very close) and he said that the Willian deal was agreed. His term was ‘ more than a done deal’. He also suggested we had a deal virtually sorted for Sarr the Nice defender. As far as I know the Willian deal agreed then has been made public now. Willian was not free to sign until Chelsea left the Champions League but I don’t think it has been renegotiated .
At the same time the Daily Mail claim that the deal is much less favourable than initially suggested . The Mail are no friends of Arsenal and it is probably that if we win the Champions League , the Boat Race and the Grand National on the same Shrove Tuesday he will be paid £300k per week.
I think there is a big issue here and few of us understand the internal ramifications. Arsenal’s purchasing and scouting were very out of date . They have been revamped but the price appears to be finding ourselves very close to super-agents who may not have our interests at the top of the list of priorities. But we have signed some excellent talent since Sanllehi arrived- Tierney, Martinelli, Saliba ( hopefully ), Leno , Pepe , Ceballos , Mari possibly . I’d have doubts over Cedric but there are few duds there. Joorabchian seemed to suggest there were grave misgivings about the signings Mislintat orchestrated before Sanllehi arrived – I think we’d excuse Aubameyang- I think he means Sokratis, and
Mkhitaryan.
I suspect KSE have been negligent in their oversight and this may have serious implications for Sanllehi. Watch this space !
Thanks for your characteristically detailed and well informed post TTG. There are rumours all over Twitter that this will end with Sanliehi losing his job.
C100
That is entirely possible particularly if there is any suggestion of impropriety in the deal but it does beg the question of whether KSE were asleep at the wheel . Like the Education Minister?
No politics in the bar TTG. I suspect you know the views of myself (and Esso) on the Rt Hon Gavin Williamson MP but the Guvna is looking down from above and pointing to the rules of the establishment.
Noted ! But I was making a point on competence not political affiliation
Mes Que Un Clusterfuck
Cynic @ 66 Hah! After the Cesc farrago couldn’t happen to a nicer club. Got to say Bayern were brutal. Wish we could be more like that.
Yeah.
Only a bit less c*nty.
That scoreline triggered my PTSD
I hate Bayern just as much as
Barca. At least Barca overpay
for our players. But they did
provide us with Sanllehi about
whom I have serious misgivings.
Thanks for the info @61 Peter.
Personally I don’t know that we
overpaid for Pepe yet. But next
season will tell – 15 goals, 15
assists and I’ll be happy.
To be fair to the others TTG
mentioned (plus Luiz) I am
only sure Leno was a good
signing as it’s too early to tell
for Mari, Saliba, Soares & Pepe.
Martinelli looks to have been
a bargain so does KT but let’s
see this season. Dani started well
and finished well but contributed
little in the middle. We got a good
third of a season for a full seasons
loan fee.
Joorabchian saying there are grave
misgivings about Mislintat is laughable.
Now I’ve read TTG’s mail I wonder if
he was just making some noise to
provide cover for Sanllehi. That might be
unfair but that’s what you get when you
lay down with jackals – suspicion, mistrust
and accusations of cronyism.
C100@60: I suspect there is less of a story there than ESPN is trying to beat up. Building on what TTG says about Tim Lewis auditing the club, my guess would be that the ‘internal investigation’ is no more than an assessment of whether we should be buying players on hire purchase/instalment plans. The monks have run through the figures and a £72 million purchase price for Pepe over five years amounts to a net present value purchase of him for £65 million, which is exactly what Pepe’s fair-market value was at the time. So the question is not whether we over valued him or that there was some underhanded dealing, which is the unspoken and unsubstantiated subtext of the ESPN report, but should we be taking the extra cost over the long term of buying players on HP. It is rather like buying a house. It is cheaper to pay cash up front, but the practicalities for most people is that monthly mortgage payments are more manageable, albeit more expensive over the long run.
When we got done big-time by Bayern over two legs in the CL. it was, in retrospect, a sign of an ending of an era for us. Same must be true for Barca now.
bath@54: thanks for the heads-up on the Arsenal Untold take on Willian’s contract. It pretty much aligns with my own thoughts. One of the great legacies of the Guv’nor is that we don’t chase clicks with beaten-up stories based on not very much, if anything at all, but can take a level-headed look at what is really going-on.
Bath/ Ned
I echo your comments about Willian’s contract although I rarely venture into Untold territory . Going there is a bit like one of those late night films where the inhabitants of a town you venture into seem ok until you find yourselves being prepared for torture. They are a bit one- eyed there. I think the point is Arsenal employed Huss Fahmy from Sky to bring some sanity and intelligence to the contracts they were offering and I understand some of the incentives built into Auba’s contract have helped to motivate and increase his commitment. He certainly produced at the end of last season .
It’s strong to call it part of a hate- press but the Daily Mail have had a strong agenda which is anti- Arsenal for years since the days of Ian McGarry who was continually reporting that Wenger was off to Real Madrid/ Barcelona / PSG etc . It’s a rag I despise on almost every level
McGarry may have merely been passing on info given to him by… someone French. I never believed that someone who was so averse to spending money and allergic to signing big star names would ever have been seriously considered for a huge job like Real Madrid beyond polite conversation at dinner, but “turning them down” was great PR.
😄
Real would have taken AW in a
heartbeat.
But I do agree about the Daily Heil.
Not good enough to line a
cats shit tray.
@75 That’s in line with my thinking, Ned. The major flaw with Kronke’s approach to the club hasn’t been that he allows every penny earned to be spent on winning something. Management controls on how that expenditure has been managed has clearly not been adequate.
Yes, Peter Hill-Wood would have sunk quickly beneath the waves at Madrid, demanding as he did that his manager return a £20M annual income frequently, achieved by selling some excellent players, and making outlay on star names a real challenge. Florentino Perez he was not.
Re: beaten up old stories based on not very much, Have we signed Kalou yet?
Speaking of BUOSBONVM, it sounds like an excellent title for one of the chapters in AW’s book.
Sanllehi’s gone.
I saw this on Twitter earlier from a gerbil related account and thought it was “interesting” but it’s now confirmed by the club
No more Raul.
I wonder how this affects our transfer plans this window?
I suspect it’s not unrelated to the appointment of a legal eagle to the board to provide governance, the announcement last week of an audit of the Pepe deal and Like Cynic I saw the straws in the wind from the likes of gerbil but thought I’d wait for further confirmation before passing it on.
It has to be good. The hierarchy contained too many grey areas of responsibility. I had heard that Edu and Arteta had formed a very strong axis on the footballing side. We have Vinai to count the pennies. Do we really need a Spanish wide boy (whatever his connections – I still haven’t seen what he was actually credited with doing at Barcelona) strutting about as much as his short fat legs will carry him?
This is good for us.
I want to know how long this has been coming? This is already a transfer window riddled with unprecedented difficulties and if we have got rid of a key component of the plans that Arteta and the club have been speaking about for a long time then I am concerned about our ability to shift gears and get deals done. We need to sell players. We need to buy players. Presumably Raul was a big part of our plan to make that happen.
This will be a huge test for Edu.
There were far too many grey areas in the responsibilities of the executives within the club even after Gazidis, Mislintat and the stat-DNA fella were shed. I think this is a good development. Edu and Arteta are the power behind this club’s footballing future and there’s no need for the poisoned dwarf. However it’s all been done very gracefully and he’ll probably get a nice golden handshake.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/arsenal-raul-sanllehi-head-of-football-leaves-vinai-venkatesham-a9672021.html
Funny how everybody appears keen to slag him off when a year ago he was being hailed as Don Raul for spending shed loads of money in a structured way over a length of time, so as not to “do” the club’s finances.
I do wonder is we should be more concerned over who is staying rather than celebrating who’s going.
Cynic@82, bath84: “gerbil”?
GSD has made a good point
about transfers but I am assuming
Edu and MA have had a big voice
in those over the last few months.
I am also assuming that at this
stage we know who we want and
for what positions. Sanllehi’s
strength was apparently his contacts
but we should be past that stage for
this transfer window. In the mid-term
we will see whether having a finance
guy in that position works but for
now I hope it’s workable.
The club statement on Sanllehi’s going offers no clues to the backstory. However, it is friendlier to him than the usual perfunctory remarks provided by companies to the departing loser of an internal power struggle, without dispelling the thought that Sanllehi was ousted. With the pruning of the scouting network, it looks as if the restructuring of the club’s management is more comprehensive than the dribs and drabs that have come out suggest.
In other news, I see that Willian has been given the No 12 shirt for next season and Saliba the No 4.
This article dates from July last year but provides some background on the machinations around the Pepe transfer.
And who knew Pepe started out as.a goalkeeper?
Cynic,
Leaving aside Sanllehi I can’t believe that you don’t think Wenger was considered for every big job in world football in the period from 2000-2010. He did after all win two doubles , go undefeated all season and won two other FA Cups plus took Arsenal to within thirteen minutes of winning the Champions League on a shoestring. Who in European football had a better CV than that ?
He could have left Arsenal many times if he had chosen to do so. I’m dumbfounded you think he had to drop fallacious stories in the ear of a hack like McGarry
I’m led to believe Fahmy will be next out of the door – sources from inside the club to the Gooner . Good structure Gazidis built didn’t he?
Interesting read from Ned@92, but boy, is it hard work?
I’m familiar enough with the Geography of France to know that in the context of a potential move between Lille and Lyon, reference to a player “having more to prove in the north of France” means staying in Lille without too much thought.
The article then makes repeated references to LOSC, presumably Lyon Olympique something something? Lyon are presumably also know as Les Gones.
Again, I guess that AFCON is the African Cup of Nations.
There’s a reference to “the Reds'” interest in the fifth paragraph – is that Liverpool who were mentioned in the previous paragraph, or another Ligue 1 team?
Fast forward to a longish paragraph about a third of the way through the article, which starts “to get into the nitty-gritty”. The paragraph discusses Pepe’s agents’ work on the transfer of, I think, Jonathan Bamba and refers to Les Dogues and Les Verts. From context, it’s fairly clear that Les Dogues are Lille, and Les Verts are probably Paris St Germain.
That’s all from the first third of the article and must be combined with it being full of foreign names that are hard to pronounce internally and difficult to remember and put into context when you come across them half-a-dozen sentences later.
I have no doubt that someone who doesn’t follow the Premier League closely would have equal difficulty following an article about The Gunners, City, the Reds, the Red Devils, the Blues and Bluenoses. If they strayed into this bar, I suspect that mentions of the Scum, Tinies, Totts, Spudz, Spertz, Chel$ski, Citti, Manchester Oilers, Manchester Rowdies, the Bindippers, Barcodes etc. etc. would render much of the discussion unintelligible.
I’m no longer sure what point, if any, I’m trying to make.
Thanks again, anyway, for the link Ned. I read it, even if I didn’t manage to take in much of it.
I never did believe he was seriously considered for the really biggest jobs, nor that he ever would have considered taking a job even if he was offered one, because all the big jobs were the absolute opposite of what he was doing.
He would never have given up a comfortable job for a top pressure job, where recruitment was out of his hands, where buying a team for crazy money was the norm and where he’d have to win the Champions League not to get sacked.
I just don’t buy it, no matter what he says or what “the chatter” is.
You really are a Contrarian aren’t you Cynic. He was definitely considered for many big jobs. Where I might agree is that I think he was very comfortable at Arsenal . Are you one of the ‘ Wenger what did he ever do for us ‘ mob? For the first half of last season you were pleading with the club not to sack Emery . Thank goodness they didn’t listen
Pangloss@95: It read a bit as if a French article had been run through Google Translate. But then I never said it would be easy reading….
Thinking more on Sanllehi, I wonder if he isn’t just the fall guy for the failed gamble on spending at CL-budget levels to get the team back into the CL quickly. That strategy (and the budgets that went with it) must have been signed off on at board level. Another way of looking at it would be that his departure means the last piece of the management edifice that Gazidis left has been demolished, and that, perversely, a management structure designed to bring on and then operate a post-Wenger world is being replaced by something that looks much more like the way the club used to run.
And with that he whips in a Pepe-like wicked cross for…
Bang! Top corner
nice ton, c100.
trev, great job between the sticks above. i too shade emi’s direction, just a gut feeling of safety on crosses in and corners…
Well in for the ton, C100. As emphatic as Tim Lewis on an overpaid transfer.
Very interesting take Ned.
It’s really hard to know what the future management model will look like at the moment but the scaling down of the scouting operation and the close link with Joorabchian ( Edu’s agent) suggest it may look different. But is you say it does underline what a poor structure Gazidis left us with .
Cynic@96, you are free to not believe that Wenger received serious offers from the top clubs. And also if you think that he would never have accepted them because he was in his comfort zone here – that’s just your opinion. If I remember correctly, the bank loans for the new stadium were conditional on him signing a five year contract to ensure the club remained consistent on the pitch and thereby safe financially with the Champions League earnings. I don’t know about you, but selling your best players year on year and still making it to the Champions League seems far more ‘uncomfortable’ to me than having to splash out the cash for the best players in the world to win the Champions League at the risk of getting sacked. Even without that he came mighty close in 2006 to winning the Champions League.
International man of mystery Matt Smith is going out on loan to Swindon Town, newly promoted to League One. Trae Coyle will be joining Zech Medley on loan at Gillingham, also in League One. Good chances for regular senior football for all them that wouldn’t be available at the Ems.
I note that ESR hasn’t been allocated a shirt number for next season. Might that imply another loan is under consideration?
Two German teams and two French teams in the CL Semis. Ned, do the monks have any record of ever happening that in CL?
Dr F@107: Closest the monks can get you is one piece in 1976 (Bayern and St Etienne) or two German and two Spanish in 2013 (Bayern and B Dortmund and Real and Barca).
Thanks Ned. It’s a record then!
It would be nice to have either Lyons or Leipzig win the thing. But probably it’s going to be Bayern.
@105
Ned – I heard that Swindon have
a settled midfield three so Matt
will have his work cut out getting
a regular place. Good challenge
for him.
OM@110: I bow to your superor knowledge of Swindon, but I can’t believe Arteta would send Matt Smith out on loan without some guarantees of playing time. Swindon seem to shuffle their formation a lot. Grant and Dougherty appear to be regulars, regardless of the line up, but they are accompanied by a revolving cast of characters, especially in that central midfield role that Matt Smith plays. We’ll see.
Thanks for the info Ned!
That is far more than I know
about Swindon’s current team.
I understand your point about
playing time but I do wonder
whether we get any such
guarantees and whether they
are worth anything even if we
do. Even ESR at Huddersfield,
who I thought was a great
prospect, seems to have been
starting from the bench more in
the 2nd half of the season.
Though the Huddersfield manager
did say his style of play wasn’t
exactly suited to a Championship
relegation battle.
The seeming squalor of our transfer dealings at present brought to mind a contrast with traditional Arsenal values. I remember listening to Malcolm Macdonald talking about signing for the club in 1976 . He knew Arsenal had been negotiating with Newcastle for some time and he felt Newcastle were getting very petty. He wasn’t sure if he wanted to sign fo4 Arsenal but Sir Dennis Hill- Wood , tge tgen Chairman asked him to go down to his house to chat things over .
He recalled they flew him down in a private flight, Sir Dennis’s chauffeur met him at the airfield in his Roller and drive him to Sir D’s palatial pile which I believe was in Buckinghamshire ( it may have been the whole of Buckinghamshire!) . He said Sir Dennis was the classic , urbane Englishman, not remotely flash. They had drinks in the garden probably G& Ts or champagne and Dennis simply said ‘ We’d love you to sign for Arsenal but we need to know if you really want to play for us?’ Malcolm knew at that moment that was exactly what he wanted and said so whereupon Sir D summoned his butler who wheeled a phone on a table presumably with a gigantic cable, out to him, got Lord Westwood , the Newcastle Chairman on the line and offered him £333,333 ( a British record at the time) .I think he said ‘ I’ve got Malcolm here he wants to sign for Arsenal and we want to make you a fair offer . How about a third of a million? That will be our only offer ‘.
I think it amused Newcastle to make it exactly a third of a million so the fee was set just like that and SuperMac became a Gunner and one I enjoyed watching.
I remember him saying you couldn’t buy class, Arsenal just oozed it . Different world now of course but patrician values have gone up in smoke since Stan arrived .
Head on over to arseblog this morning for a blistering account of the Sanllehi era at Arsenal. We may never know the whole truth but I think the Kroenkes may have learnt that if you are going to be an absentee landlord you need a man of integrity at the helm.
Can anyone confirm whether Gazidis speaks spanish? I was sure for years that he does, I think I’ve even seen video of him doing it, yet every time Blogs has talked about Emery’s appointment he says only Raul could understand him, not Ivan or Sven, which I don’t think is right.
Or am I wrong about Ivan’s language skills?
GSD,
I can confirm he was fluent in bullshit 😃
TTG,
Well, that’s a language in common with Raul, but I don’t think Emery was much of a bullshitter. I believe Unai majored in gobbledygook.
Bath,
Thankyou for pointing out the Arseblog article . While I abhor Le Grove from a comments point of view Peter Wood is very good on this too. That is why I took a fairly string line in our discussions on the What’s App Page yesterday , If you don’t follow and discuss what has been happening and what will change I can’t see the point of following a club .
The idea that Arsenal has been and always will be run well is extremely naive. This has been a grubby period, KSE have dropped the ball in oversight terms and are picking it up far too late and many millions poorer .
Let’s hope we see a new, better and cleaner era emerge from this all
TTG, I second those emotions.
.com have released an interview with Vinai to pour oil on troubled waters. A new era, a new improved communication strategy. Long may it be continued.
@113 Excellent, TTG.
Top stuff TTG.
Well I certainly wish Vinai all
the best, however he is not a
newbie and I hope he will drive
a significant improvement in our
commercial operation over the
next two years
TTG @118, that’s the first time I have read Le Grove in many years. I only did so on your strong recommendation. It was well worth it and I was also interested to read his linked article from November ’19 calling attention to the manouvering to get Nuno in as Emery’s replacement. Our club sounds like it’s been turned into the Augean Stables. Thank heavens Tim Lewis was called in!
TTG and Baff. Which article is worth a look?
Cheers Baff.
Both Arseblogger and Le Grove make for good reads. Le Grove’s observation that Sanllehi was a chancer, not a manager, and an average chancer at that, seems to me to be the telling point. Tim Lewis is an international M&A lawyer who can spot a dodgy deal in his sleep. Sanllehi was overmatched.
Rooting him out leaves Vinai Venkatesham, who by all accounts is a reliable manager, running the business. Arteta has a clear sense of what sort of squad he wants to build to deliver the football he wants to play. He will run that side of things with Edu, with Lewis no doubt keeping a close watching brief on anything that touches on transfers and player contracts.
To my mind, the outstanding questions are, first, around Edu: whose man will he turn out to be? Arteta’s? Agents’? The ghost of Sanllehi? His own? Second, how will recruitment and retention work under the new regime? Is there a sufficient rump of the data analytics and scouting staff to rebuild on, or is there a different tack to be taken, especially if the scouting function in football is moving to the agents regardless.
Venkatesham’s interview on the club site seems to make all the points to be expected about club ambition, communication with the fans and being on the right trajectory now. The only thing out of the ordinary I spotted was his comments on board oversight of the football plan. Better late than never at all.
https://www.arsenal.com/news/interview-vinai-venkatesham
Very good and thought provoking read @125. Thank you, Bath.
Thanks also TTG for that highly amusing anecdote about DHW and the transfer of SuperMac. Extra long extension cable, indeed. 🤣
Ned @127, those are exactly the questions that need to be asked of Edu! Well enumerated.
TTG’s piece made me wonder if Sir Dennis Hill-Wood was the inspiration for Arsenal Gent!
Backdrinking therehave been some good posts on here and referenced elsewhere . Peter Wood has never been my favourite blogger but he really has covered this issue well ove4 several months . There is a dispute about whether Sanllehi left, jumped before being pushed or was pushed . I suspect the writing was on the wall and it has been portrayed as a power struggle with Arteta which the good guy won . Arteta and Edu seem to have formed a good old midfielders alliance . As for Willian this transfer would have been heavily scrutinised by Tim Lewis and it must have passed muster financially .
A couple of things mates have sent me. There is apparently a strong feeling our first fixture in the PL is at Old Toilet . I usually ignore these things but if it is I hope they win after extra time tonight and lose in the final next week after extra time .
Secondly it appears very likely we will sign the Lille lad Gabriel . It is being reported thus in Italy .
For the linguists – the Gabriel deal
https://www.calciomercato.com/news/l-arsenal-tenta-il-lille-nuova-offerta-per-gabriel-il-napoli-e-s-44451
So it seems the situation with Gabriel is that Lille has a gentleman’s agreement to sell him to Napoli, for which he has already turned down Everton, but Napoli is dragging its feet as it is waiting to sell Koulibaly first, presumably to Man City. Thus Lille is prepared to renege on the handshake deal as we are ready to offer 3 million euros more for the player and move now.
@134 – Was that you or the monks who provided that succinct translation, Ned? Have the monks seen him play?
Beautifully summarised Ned.
Napoli need to move Koulibaly on immediately to fund the fee for Gabriel. Given the current situation , the size of the likely Koulibaly fee and the time it would take to negotiate a deal of that size we must be favourites
The monks know everything but see nothing, BtM. Or they know nothing but see everything. They keep changing which way round it is…
I’ve enjoyed the knockout
format in the European games
this time. Manure were the
icing on the cake tonight.
Pity that money dictates it
won’t happen again.
Our FA Cup win is shinier and
shinier 😁
ha ha, manchester united…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>