I decided to try to find something appropriate to stimulate discussion as we enter our first enforced break of the season. What emerged is a bit of a ramble about my experience of watching international football and some thoughts about how the interaction between international football and club football has changed over the years. At the end I speculate about how this might have changed our views about the respective loyalties engendered by club v country. I am deliberately taking a slightly controversial view, not to provoke argument but because I thoroughly disapprove of the direction of travel for international football. You may or may not agree!
Three games into the new season we face our first Interlull! I have already declared that I don’t mind Interlulls because I find the hopes and dreams we have for Arsenal become so intense that it is nice to have a break from them. But I don’t like Interlulls because they usher in international football. To be honest, although I regard myself as a reasonably patriotic Englishman, I’m not sure if I will bother watching the England matches in this break. To put this in context, between 1973 and 1978 I never missed an England international at Wembley. A group of us would go from the office, get nicely beered up before the match and we watched some momentous games including that famous match against Poland, Don Revie’s first match as manager, SuperMac’s five goals against Cyprus and the defeat of the new World Champions (West Germany) in 1975 ( I attended my wife’s graduation from London University and then hotfooted it to the match). I did take her out to celebrate later that week!
Gradually a combination of family life, work pressures and more particularly the sort of English fans I ran into, made me less and less inclined to go. I attended some of the Euros games in 1996 and took some Irish friends to see the Republic outplay us around 1992. I remember the game because some morons heard their Irish accents and tried to kick them in the face! The last international I remember attending was at Villa Park, a friendly against the Dutch about twenty years ago. It ended 0-0 and was unalloyed tedium. I remember getting to Birmingham early and finding a pub that might have come from the set of ‘Shameless’. It was all going so well until the English supporters arrived and started ‘No surrender to the IRA’ and their songs about German bombers and the like. You might sense a theme here.
The thing I increasingly noted and that is very noticeable at away games and during tournaments was that the majority of the people who followed England around were either unaffiliated or were supporters of clubs in the lower divisions or non-league teams. England supporters are almost a separate species to regular Premier League watchers. This schism, if I can call it that, is regularly reflected among Holics when England teams are selected. It is very clear that a lot of Holics have much less concern about the England team than they do Arsenal. When Saka or Rice or Lewis-Skelly are picked there is grave concern (often fully justified, especially in Saka’s case) about overplaying key players and subjecting them to injury. I’m a bit ambivalent about this because I’m certain that Rice and Saka have, as one of their ambitions for this season, to play for England in the World Cup next summer. But I also don’t want them put at unnecessary risk….and you can add to that list others like Eze and Madueke and MLS and, who knows, by next summer 16 year old Max Dowman may be off to the USA with England!
This is primarily an article about England but the reality of Premier League football is that it supplies players to countries all over the world, some of whom fly prodigious distances to represent their country during international breaks. Arsenal have had players from 65 different countries representing them and the majority of them played international football at some point during their time with us. So, the football calendar is now highly prescribed and, certainly during the autumn, the league season can feel very fragmented as international football gets played.
If I were to sum up the attitude that most UK based Holics have, it is that they reluctantly accept international qualifying games, certainly for the World Cup and Euros, but they resent international friendlies. Unfortunately those friendly games are the only time that managers get an opportunity to experiment, blood new players and try out formations. They are an inevitable part of the football year but there is nothing as annoying as having star players injured on international duty. Martin Ødegaard suffered a serious ankle injury playing for Norway at the start of last season and hasn’t looked the same player since he returned.
It didn’t used to be like this. I’m old enough to remember the 1958 World Cup. It was the first football I ever watched seriously. All four home nations qualified but as far as I recall Arsenal only had two representatives and they were in the Welsh team. Jack Kelsey, our keeper, was regarded as one of the finest keepers in the tournament and I remember my Dad watching him perform with enormous pride. Dave Bowen, the club skipper, was also involved. We didn’t have any representatives in the England team then nor in the 1962 World Cup and only George Eastham, who was transfer listed and left the club before the start of the next season, figured in the 1966 World Cup winning English squad and never kicked a ball during a tournament in which there were no substitutes.
It used to be a matter of great pride to have players capped for England. I can remember a young winger, Danny Clapton, winning a cap against Wales in 1958. The Home Internationals were played on midweek afternoons during the season and the club got a great lift when Clapton was picked. One fact from that game, which showed how different football was, occurred when Arsenal fixed a prestige friendly against Juventus at Highbury. We had never had European football, and the match attracted a huge crowd. Kelsey played against England and then he was driven from Villa Park to Highbury where he played for Arsenal! Can you imagine that happening now? The date was November 26th 1958 and Kelsey started both games and played 90 minutes in both.
The 1966 World Cup hugely increased interest in international football in this country (obviously not in Scotland!) and was one of the key milestones in the development of modern football in this country. As I started going to international matches in the seventies I was not aware of fans who were primarily England fans. I went partly to see how Arsenal players performed but there weren’t many in the England team in the seventies! My first game was against Northern Ireland and it was the last game in England before the 1970 World Cup.
English clubs were banned from Europe in the eighties because of a number of incidents culminating in the awful scenes at Heysel before Liverpool played Juventus and there were a series of hugely embarrassing incidents involving English ‘fans’ on foreign grounds. This tended to alienate a lot of fans and the mediocre performance of the England team exacerbated the indifference to international football. That began to change as we entered the nineties post Hillsborough as English football tried to clean up its act.
I think the next big milestone was Italia 90. It was the first time I can remember people watching en masse on screens, something that is very much the norm now, and the reaction to Gazza’s tears touched a nerve in many people. I watched that semi-final in Turin where Gazza touched the nation’s heart, in a mountaintop restaurant outside Zurich at an international conference with my company. The England supporters with us were drawn from USA, Australia, South Africa and a few of us from Blighty. The rest of the group, including all the Europeans, favoured the Germans. As we entered extra- time the CEO asked everyone to depart for the tram back into Zurich. All the England supporters refused and stayed with one German! After the game we had to walk down the mountain very late to catch a different tram. Cue one very nervous German as we joked about throwing him off the mountainside!
The Premier League was formed just after this and we also had the Euros in 1996 in England. The first proper foreigner I can remember signing for us was Anders Limpar and then of course we had the momentous acquisition of Dennis Bergkamp. The integration of increasing numbers of foreign players into English football increased the quality of the product but also led to English fans embracing foreign players as idols and favourites. Foreign coaches began to proliferate. It is remarkable to think that Arsene Wenger was the first foreign coach to be really successful in England. Gradually, the Premier League became more and more international and at the same time the England team started to improve, other than a brief nosedive under Graham ‘do I not like Orange’ Taylor.
Where once Arsenal fans rejoiced at the England debut of Danny Clapton, they now started to hold their breath as most of their squad flew around the world playing in international qualifiers and major tournaments like AFCON and the Copa America. The Premier League has become indisputably the financial powerhouse of world football and seeing the best players in the world every week the sense of awe when a global superstar pitches up to play against us is seriously diminished.
England search in vain for success although under Southgate they came tantalisingly close to it and one senses that there would still be serious rejoicing in the kingdom if they did finally achieve international glory. One only has to look at the joy that the Lionesses have generated to glimpse the national appetite for celebration! But the majority of keen fans of football teams are much more interested in their club than their country.
A few years ago, the late Franz Beckenbauer postulated an idea that the focus of international competition would switch from national teams to club teams. The recent World Club Cup which preposterously installed a very erratic Chelsea side as ‘World Champions’ (really?) may point to that. I have to confess a second national World Cup in what is not a major football playing country is an affront to countries who will stage it with much more tradition and atmosphere. I intend no offence to American readers who love the game and adore Arsenal but there are more deserving venues for the competition in my personal view. But Infantino is so far up Donald Trump’s backside (there’s an image for you!) that he is happy to let the Orange one garner huge personal publicity at a global event that is bound to be disrupted by frequent lightning strikes and the indifference of a large part of the local population.
As an Englishman, I would love to see England win the World Cup but I want to see Arsenal lift the Cup with Big Ears infinitely more than that. I bet if you polled the attendance at our next home game 95% of the English fans would agree with me. I contend that football tribalism trumps (oo-er!) patriotism when it comes to supporting the game. I’m not anti international football but I don’t consider it is anywhere near as important to me as a win for my beloved Arsenal.
How do readers feel?
Let me know in the Drinks!
Couldn’t agree more TTG!
I was born and raised in England; now a proud Canadian. Dad took me to Highbury as a
nipper. I’m a Gooner through and through. Watched the ‘66 Final at Wembley; upset that Eastham didn’t play. I want England to win another World Cup; but if they come up against Canada – I’ll be cheering for the Brits because there are Arsenal players in the team, and none playing for Canada. If per chance England play Canada here in Vancouver in next year’s W.C., I’ll be at the game wearing my Arsenal shirt! We should have at least 4 Arsenal players in the team. (Although my red shirt will appear that I’m a Canuck fan!)
Nice one, Boff, and nice article, TTG. I stopped going in the early 90’s as I was trapped in a tube carriage full of England “fans” singing “No Surrender” all the way from Baker St to Wembley Park, and was then sat behind people who had clearly never been to a football match yet managed to declare themselves Man Utd fans and failed to recognise a well known Utd player:
Them: “Who is that no. X for England?”
Me: “ That’s Y, he plays for United”.
I imagine many will have suffered similarly.
For avoidance of doubt, I enjoy shows of nationalism at sports events. When it crosses over to stupidity, I draw the line. Things like booing the opposition nation’s anthem are just boorish and rude. Too many attendees at England games at the time I stopped going were on the far side of the line.
I recall watching the 66 World Cup final in black and white on TV in Glasgow. My grandfather was there, reliving and equating his WW1 experiences in France to the game on the field “Jerry is a cunning opponent….can never be trusted” kind of stuff. I do believe he wouldn’t have been overly surprised had a German player drawn a Luger and shot Nobby Stiles before half-time or an incoming whizz-bang landed on the centre circle.
We were both entertained and I was pleased England won. I was even more pleased – fever pitch levels of delight – when Scotland inherited the World Cup champions title in the decider played at Wembley in 1967 – the team in dark blue were so far ahead on that day that Slim Jim had time to sit on the ball and peruse the ‘Oor Wullie’ section of the Sunday Post that he carried in his back pocket for such occasions, and still inspire a 3-2 win.
My own very best memory dates back to April 11, 1964 when, along with 133,999 others, I had the great pleasure of watching my boyhood hero Alan Gilzean head a trademark winner for Scotland at Hampden Park. Two other Dundee players (Alex Hamilton and Ian Ure regularly featured for ‘us’ on those days too).
See if you can spot me in the crowd.
And so to your theme, TTG. I was a rabid Dundee and Scotland fan in those days gone down, to the point of being unable to sleep before games incase either team lost and reduced to sickness in the event that we did. Sadly, the likelihood of Scotland fielding three players from Dundee has declined to nil, the Scottish game to a level below Championship and the national team to one that I have to drag myself to watch and now can never enjoy.
I have no like whatsoever for international friendlies and never watch them. I watch England play (both men and ladies) to see how Arsenal players perform and entertain in major competitions. I’m pleased for the players’ accomplishment of representing their country but fear constantly that through being overplayed, a major injury is just around the next corner kick.
P.S. When I saw your title, I feared that I was about to read more regarding the current flurry of England flags that have appeared in home towns like my own which is only a few miles from a certain hotel in Epping. I was mightily relieved that that was not the case. I have no time for any of that tihs.
Btm
You are the first Scotsman I know who wanted England to win in 1966. Thankyou your support made all the difference . I laughed my head off when Scotland lost to Peru in Argentina and cheered my head off when Archie Gemmill got ‘ that goal’ against the Dutch.
Those results summed up the Scottish team but they had some outstanding players at that time . I attended the opening game of the 1998 World Cup when they were desperately unlucky to lose to Brazil. The Scottish. fans provided great craic in Paris that night . In 1973 I had stood totally silent in Wembley when England won( very fortunately against a very good Scottish side . I estimate about 90% of the attendance was from North of the border and I me t several later looping around the tube lines fast asleep who never made the match. It would be great for many reasons to have a competitive Scottish team but unless Elon Musk takes over Scottish footballs d transforms it financially it ain’t gonna happen .
Argentina – we joined you in laughing, TTG, in fact we’d been laughing for months because the team from south of the border, like Swaziland, Vietnam, Panama and San Merino, had failed to qualify and so were all sitting watching on the telly while Scotland creamed the eventual runners up. We too cheered our heads off when Archie scored but rued yet another unsuccessful venture in which a very talented squad, managed by a man whose tactical acumen matched that of a turnip, had come up woefully short of its potential.
I was living in Belgium in 1998 and took the train down to Paris for the opening game on a corporate boondoggle. Seats were three rows back from the touchline, right on half-way (mine had been purchased from Ghana’s FA). One minute before kick-off the dozen or so seats behind us were still empty (with about 4 million Scots still outside the stadium hoping for a late ticket to fall from the sky). With 3 seconds to KO, Rod Stewart and his entourage arrived and provided great fun company throughout the game. Rod couldn’t watch Collins penalty so I provided a running commentary. Another game we shouldn’t have lost but the cracks in quality had already begun to appear. by then.
A very enjoyable piece TTG.
Mention of the Archie Gemmill goal reminds me of my undergraduate tutor, a cancer researcher and latterly Dean of Biological Sciences at UEA and the Labour MP for Norwich North, Professor Ian Gibson. Ian was a passionate Scottish football fan, with an accent from the Gorbals even though he came from a middle class Edinburgh family. He was so delighted by “that” goal that he got someone to clip it and put it on a tape loop, where it played non stop in his office next to his lab in the BIO building. Very disconcerting when you were trying to concentrate on tutorials, or on defending your final year dissertation!
A thought-stirring read, TTG. It may just come down to the fact that club football is better than international football — as it should be; most PL teams would beat most international sides.
An excellent read, TTG and a stimulating wander through the post-war history of international football and its relative position to the club game, albeit from, for me, an alien perspective though, nonetheless, fully representing my own experience over that period and my current views. It is matched by the quality of the Drinks, to date.
Naturally, BtM comes closer to my own experience of international football. The frustrations of a series of fine Scotland squads, lamentably coached, failing to qualify at all in the 60’s, followed by even more talented, generally better managed (except ’78) but nonetheless, underachieving squads that failed to progress, often tragically, from the group stages between 1974 (Oh Billy!) and 1998 (Oh Tom!) leaves deep, deep scars. The subsequent extremely marked decline in both playing talent and coaches (those criticising MA8 for conservatism should have seen the teams of Vogts, Burley and Levein) inevitably left me somewhere between unenthusiastic and uninterested. However recently Steve Clarke, despite being a somewhat dour ex-Chav, has rekindled both hope and a modicum of interest but it’s still just making a linen purse out of a sow’s ear.
Yet, despite a slight upturn in interest in Scotland’s fortunes, with flickering patriotism in the ashes of that abusive relationship, my enthusiasm is a small fraction of that I retain for Aberdeen FC and the almost all-consuming passion I hold for The Arsenal.
England? I thought that was a cricket team?
Nailed it, Ned @7.
I made fleeting references to Scotland in the piece but it needs to be said that in 1967 Scotland beat England , albeit a side hit by an injury to Jackie Charlton, at Wembley and could justifiably claim to be one of the best sides in the world . They had a series of brilliant players over a twenty year period , Mackay, Bremner, White, Baxter, Law, Crerand, Henderson , Gilzean , Souness, Dalglish, Gemmill, Hansen and so on . The decline in standards must be heartbreaking to such a football mad country .
Ps- a sad day with the departure of Daniel Levy. Ousted when everyone thought he was impregnable . It’s incredible to hear Tottnumb blogs reinvent the history of a club with no league title for 64 years and one FA Cup in 43 years . Delusional in the extreme .
If Daniel Levy was the problem, is Vinai Venkatesham the answer?
Answers on a postcard, please, to a post box in the Bahamas.
ttg (and all recent authors), great piece. out of my ken, mostly, since i’m a colonial.
i don’t think it’s the end of “let’s all laugh at tottnumb” any time soon. the taint is too engrained for it to fade with the absence of their great leader. remember, he led them to be “european champeens”…for which grace they promptly fired the manager, and waited until the end of the window to fire him. such a classy club. 64 years, 4 months, and counting…
ned, i so, so, so hope vinai is their answer. because we know how he rolls, and what he’ll bring to their team. as nick van excel would have said, “1-2-3 cancun!”.
I’d imagine Arsenal winning the champions league would give me as much joy as England winning the World Cup. In 2018 the England squad was full of spurs players and only 1 Arsenal player (Danny Welbeck who barely played) but for me it didn’t change the passion I had for England. The passion I feel for England in major tournaments is every bit as intense as it is for Arsenal week in week out. My interest during international breaks wanes only because of the goat herders we are constantly drawn against. I really don’t care for club or country debates. For me it’s always been Arsenal and England. During major tournaments over 90% of the country comes together as one which leads me to believe that a great deal more people care for the national team than they let on. National pride in England is a lot thinner on the ground than it is in other countries for various reasons but I do think people care. Especially now that we’re actually quite good.
Scruz@12: It’s probably ‘1-2-3 Clacton’, in the neighbours’ case.
Actually, Nick van Excel might have said ‘1-2-3 Lotus’.
21stCG@13: You are a welcome counterpoint to the jaded old lags hereabouts! Your post and TTG’s references to Jack Kelsey and the ’58 World Cup finals made me think about footballing nations like Wales, which don’t have club teams that will contest for the elite trophies, and where fans channel enormous pride into following the national team through thick, and more often thin, and it becomes an assertion of not so much national identity as national existence. The Welsh fans’ unofficial anthem, Yma o Hyd, captures that. Its chorus translates to ‘Despite everyone and everything, we’re still here’. When Wales qualified for the 2022 World Cup, the players sang it to the fans. I can’t imagine the England squad doing that.
Thanks TTG for an interesting read. To be honest I had no idea who England are even playing this interlull until I checked after reading your piece. Like several other jaded old lags I too stopped going in the 90s.
Pity in a way as one of my favourite away trips was around Germany on a young people’s rail pass in 1988 to watch England be disastrously bad in the old 8 team Euros. Even then our fellow supporters were so moronic we headed straight out of town on the first train somewhere after games to avoid the hassle. On the plus side I suppose that meant I did get to visit places like Ulm, not far from Stuttgart, a nice place and the locals very welcoming once they understood we were Irish not English hooligans 🙂
Agreed Ned @7. But I also think the expansion of the World Cup / Euros and endless, now mostly pointless, qualifiers have taken something away from international competition.
With apologies to our brethren from north of the wall my favourite
Scotland World Cup was 1990 as I had a tenner on Costa Rica at
the ridiculous price of 15/2.
That Archie Gemmell goal was the only time I ever saw my Dad
cheering for Scotland. Great game against a great Dutch side.
I have never been able to, will never be able to relate to the majority of the morons (and media hype) that follow England. They have no respect for anyone or anything. I have witnessed their behaviour in Luxembourg and Finland in the 80s and it was truly shocking. I don’t think anything has changed in 2025.
Plus I’m Spanish.
Tilting at windmills again, SP?
Nice comment, 21CG. It’s refreshing to see Da Yoot caring. You make a good point about the nature of some of the games. FIFA and National associations just don’t get it. They see the success of club football, and particularly the PL, and decide that more football is the answer. C.f. the “ Nations League, the point of which I don’t think anybody gets, and the ever expanding European Champs and World Cup and try to shoehorn ever less meaningful games into the calendar. Why is England, or any of the other larger, more populous nations, playing games against Gibraltar, or Andorra or Luxembourg- a country with no point other than to bolster the mainland European delusion of being a financial powerhouse. Sorry Luxembourgeois.
TTG @10- so finally Agent Levy has been rumbled. Surely the greatest plant since Kim Philby. I fear we shall miss him. Ahh well, I guess he’ll have his money to keep him warm. I hope it’s not as utterly counterfeit as his “legacy”, already being spun as though he were a modern day Charlemagne, rather than Charlatan.
Yes those windmills. I’ll never understand them.
Levy is another of life’s chancers. I’m sure there’ll be someone else to come along and maintain his legacy of achieving sweet fanny Adams.
Thanks for an interesting read TTG.
I never managed to attend any England games but cheered them on vociferously from the sofa, yes even when Cashley Cole betrayed us he was still imo the best in his position in the world at that time.
Funnily enough my interest began to wane during Southgate’s tenure, nearly men they may have been but the football by and large was quite negative and boring, I’ll watch any Arsenal team play but only watch England in actual tournaments as I can’t abide the pointless friendlies or qualifying games against so called minnows we struggle to beat, I’m depressed enough without forcing myself to watch those games.
Also it pisses me off that Harry Kane’s goalscoring record was mostly achieved in such games, to me its frankly embarrassing.
TTG – thanks for another brilliantly written piece. You have certainly acquired ‘Holic’s ability to make football history interesting and very readable.
Personally, my interest in England games waned as Arsenal became more international thanks, of course, to Arsene Wenger. I had absolutely no wish to see an England team including no Arsenal players – cos as the media pointed out, we were a team fiull of foreigners at that time – beat a French team including the lines of Henry, Vieira, Petit and Pires, especially when the England team contained oiks like Terry, Rooney, Ferdinand, Lampard and Gerrard. They, and the disgusting behaviour of England fans at the time, turned me completely off international football.
Ironically, considering the criticism he took from the British media, it was Arsene Wenger’s methods in the development of young English talent that led to the technical improvement of the England team and their ability to hold their own – albeit often boringly – if not beat too foreign opposition. Arsenal now regularly provides several players to the England team but do I want them to go and give our French or Brazilian players a good hiding. No, not really. My ambivalence, oximoronically, knows no bounds.
My only real interest in international fixtures is that they don’t damage Arsenal’s players and prospects.
Thanks TTG for another immaculate trip down memory lane. My earliest memory of an international match was between England & Hungary at Wembley in 1953. As a young child I was aware that England had never been beaten at home and though the Hungarian team arrived with an outstanding reputation it was unthinkable for a defeat to occur, and certainly not an overwhelming 6-3 defeat. The Hungarians had moved on to the next level with world class starts like Puskás & Hidegkuti and everyone had ignored that the USA defeated England 1-0 at the 1950 World Cup somewhere abroad ( which explained such a shock defeat!).
Apart from the Home internationals played at the end of each season, international matches were an irregular occurrence and in the late 1950s Arsenal’s interest was at a nadir – I recall Jack Kelsey of course the great Welsh goalkeeper and Billy “Flint McCullough of NI and Jack Magill of RoI ( both full backs). Joe Haverty a Welsh winger and of course Danny Clapton for England, a 1 cap wonder IIRC. As we drifted in the 1960s the standard at Highbury was gradually improving with more of our players being recognised by their countries of birth. I would guess 99% of all players in the English leagues were from the 4 Home Counties and Replublic of Ireland. During the 60s more internationals were being played and this culminated in the 1966 World Cup being hosted by England. Tickets were relatively easy to buy – I was working in the West End and i could jump on the tube up to Wembley in my lunch break and buy tickets for matches there ( too late unfortunately for the actual final ).
By this time the amount of European club matches started to increase and the big international tournaments increased their scope with many more qualication matches incurred. These matches still held great interest but results never reached the over hyped expectations and the hooliganism started to take over. Certainly matches abroad became more difficult to attend as family and career took precedence.
By the 1990s television coverage became much more intense coinciding with introduction of the EPL. Sky in particular threw bigger & bigger chunks money at this venture which led to the explosion of top level foreign players and subsequent foreign managers raising the level ever higher. Seeing all these players now playing at our grounds every week has lowered the excitement one used to have seeing them only occasionally at international matches. As football has become more and more media saturated to a level in my mind that now lowers my interest in the game. But I am fortunate in that being born and raised in Islington The Arsenal was in my blood from day one. They were much simpler times -we could walk down from Crouch Hill to Highbury every other Saturday afternoon for a 3 pm kick off ( or 7.30pm on Tuesdays for midweek matches ) – they are my Team and that has run deep for 80 years and always has meant more than the England matches – apart from July 30 1966.
A nice remembrance of times past, Uply. I had no idea you were an Islington product. Walking from Crouch Hill, you say? Jeez that’s a fair walk. Clearly your generation was tougher than mine! I trust you didn’t walk back up that bugger after the game?!
Thank you for what I will treasure as a very meaningful compliment Trev and tgankyou for your very interesting recollections Uply . I remember a lad at school deciding after tge semi- final to get a ticket for the World Cup Final and doing it quite easily ! Different times but an extraordinary memory . I remember the excitement that gripped the nation. I remember bunking off from a trip to the Science Museum from school with some friends and heading to HydePark because of the girls sunbathing by the Serpentine ! We were earnestly discussing the upcoming English game the next day – against Argentina ! One of the most bitterly fought internationals we ever played . Girls and football what a heady mix for a fifteen year old!
Our new, record signing from Liverpool, Olivia Smith, just scored an absolute worldie for the women’s team in their league opener at the Emirates.
Smith’s goal
https://bsky.app/profile/hantsravens.bsky.social/post/3ly6bzmfcds2y
Terrific game for the ladies and ultimately a 4-1 victory . As C100 said Olivia Smith scored a sensational goal
ttg@28: re your last line, not much has changed in 60 years, then… 🤣😘
Thanks TTG! And everyone else. Lively discussion, livelier anecdotes.
The best thing I could say about international football is that these competitions between nations allow people to learn about and appreciate our wonderful diversity across geographical and cultural boundaries, if it were true. Or rather, it’s not true for everyone. Some of us may see an opportunity to learn about another country, but many find in international football a perfect outlet to unabashedly express all the vile sentiments they carry around about “others.”
For us Arsenal supporters, these international breaks tend to bring nothing but bad news. And now given that these players are made to play nonstop as the number of newly invented international competitions just keeps growing, the likelihood of such bad news increases.
On the other hand, most of the players clearly love playing for their national teams for they find in it a kind of rootedness to go back to in a world where much of their playing lives they live nomadic lives where they move from one tribe (football club) to another with a frequency that doesn’t necessarily match their heart’s ability to change allegiance overnight.
The international calendar is not going to change anytime soon. Let’s hope our relatively (comparing to our past) deeper squad allows us to better absorb the consequences of that in this and coming seasons.
It seems on message for this thread to say that this England v Andorra game is extremely tedious.
Just watching a competent but largely underwhelming performance from England against Andorra. By far the most entertaining and creative players on the pitch hail from the Arsenal stable. All four are playing well with Madueke the most exciting and dynamic player on the pitch. Has an England team ever taken the field with four starters from the Arsenal? Perhaps in the thirties?
And, with the help of AI we learn:
“Yes, an England team has taken the field with four starters from Arsenal, and even went as far as to have seven Arsenal players starting in a match against Italy in 1934. The seven players were Frank Moss, George Male, Eddie Hapgood, Wilf Copping, Ray Bowden, Ted Drake, and Cliff Bastin, with England winning the match 3-2 at Highbury.”
Bath@36 – ” Boy” Bastin had the boozer over the road from the pub where the football club used to drink at University back in the 80’s. Stupidly, I never went in once in the 3 years I was there. Proof, were it needed, that youth is a phase, not a skill.
That 1934 match against Italy was the equivalent of the 1967 England vs Scotland match. The victors over the World Champs claiming the world title for themselves.
That win in an apparently ill-tempered match also known as the Battle of Highbury meant that The Arsenal were the World Champions to my own admittedly skewed logic
Bath
You had obviously fallen asleep when Sam Matteface said we last had four players in an England team against San Marino in 2014 when Woy Hodgson was manager . Actually he only said 2014 but we had six in that squad. I don’t know which of the six played
– Chambers Gibbs Wilshere Welbeck Ox Walcott.
That surprised me. I can’t ever remember four starting a game for England
To give the monks a lie-in. I checked for you TTG, Calum and Kieran were the full-backs, Jack in midfield and the recently arrived Welbz up front. The Ox came on to replace Henderson in the 2nd half so we actually had five for a short period until Danny went off.
OM@40: Your care and consideration are greatly appreciated. 🙂
For Boy Bastin fanboys, this is worth another read, although I say so myself:
Come to think of it I hope our Arsenal players in this latest England game have better, or perhaps more importantly luckier, careers than the 2014 class.
Calum is still playing and captain of Cardiff this season. His 41 appearances last season in the Championship was his highest in any season of his career.
Welbz is as most of you no doubt know is still plying his trade at Brighton. Though how many know his 31sr goal for Brighton last April made him their record goal scorer in the Premier League is another question.
Kieran retired a couple of years back from Inter Miami, but still works there in broadcasting and also set up a youth academy with Matuidi and Marveaux.
Looking back he never seemed the same player after losing the left-back battle with Nacho Montreal.
SuperJack needs no waffle from me, He seems to be currently looking for a first team manager role somewhere, best of luck to him. I would say the Manure job’ll be free soon but I wouldn’t wish that most poisonous of chalices on one of our own.
The Ox, who came on as sub in that game , has left Turkey now after a mutually agreed contract termination but has to date found no club to join back in the UK. As he is a free agent I am sure he can find somewhere. Best of luck to him and congratulations on the recent announcement of a new baby on the way.
If we’d had 8 players in the squad I could have waffled to the 50 😃
No sign of Theo in the squad either, though I suppose he might have pulled
out injured….
Matt, Not impossible to imagine England with the following on the field over 90 minutes:
Ramsdale*
White, Heaven* MLS
Dowman, Rice, Nwaneri
Saka, Obi*, Eze, Madueki
* Alumni – a couple of which were tough to type.
Why not?
Bang!
Bath @36 – and don’t forget – Bill Brewer, Peter Gurney, Peter Davy, Dan Whiddon, Harry Hawke and Uncle Tom Cobley and all …….
Well in for the half-ton, bath. Some dogged ball retention from OM.
BtM@49: ESR and Eddie Nketiah from the alumni for the bench, too.
Mikel Merino’s hatrick
https://x.com/y5icu/status/1964792023929811422?s=61&t=cVFjCyGkt4y-Ne45LtfqkQ
Cheers C100 – even though I couldn’t see it cos the owner has taken it down 😡
A fine 50 Bath 👏👏👏
@49:not impossible BtM, nor the two added by Ned. Be nice if ESR could get back
to his best.
C115y and PL agree to end battle. To absolutely nobody’s surprise, bugger all will happen as a result of the 12 year financial cheating programme.
CER@56: Both the PL and Qatar can afford a very large carpet to sweep these things under. At least m’learned friends will have made a pretty penny out of it all. On to the 115 charges…
These are highlights of Dowman playing for England U-19 against Spain U-19. It is essentially a procession of clips of him being chopped down by Spanish defenders, but the tackle at around 1 min and 20 seconds into the video is among the worst you’ll see if you never saw Leeds in the 70s.
Thanks Ned. Agricultural would certainly be fair for that foul.
Arsenal , over the years appear to be victims of the new manager bounce as managers depart just before we play them and guess what ? It’s happened on Saturday . Nuno has been given the tin tack and a new man will be in charge . Probably he’s sitting on Edu’s chilly patio with a burnt sausage and a bit of halloumi being interviewed .
Who knows it might be Ange …or ten Hag or Gary O’ Neil . But will he be in place for Saturday and will Edu be welcome back at the club? And Marinakis gave Arteta Covid in early 2020 so he might not be the most welcome visitor .
Nuno did a damn fine job at Forest but really doesn’t seem to get on with Edu . Could he be a candidate for West Ham? And who had him in the Predictathon ?
Scottie Parker has let me down again.
Agent Edu does his work again. Well played.
I’m not bothered about a new manager bounce. Any new manager is going yo have minimal time with the players as they come back from interlull travels. Wood, for example, is, as we speak, playing for New Zealand against the Chain Rattlers. He won’t be back in UK before Wednesday night. K.O. Is 12.30 Saturday.
In other news, Bilbao away is available for Red members from 9 am this morning. Mostly because it will cost, relatively speaking, a kings ransom to get there and stay there, so few flights being available.
Apologies – 10 a.m.
Ned, @58, that is a horrible catalogue of assaults. That referee was astonishingly weak given the repeated fouling that he let the Spanish thugs perpetuate. Was there really only one yellow card in all that?
CER @63, a very nice town though. I heartily recommend it. Good bus connections to San Sebastián and Biarritz might allow cheaper flight options.
You spend weeks assessing squads and coaches to come up with the best possible entry for the Predictathon and you forget the emotional lability of the fat Demis Roussos doppelgänger.
Welcome back Ange ! Not
The fat Demis Roussos Doppelgänger has got himself a fat manager !
Cheers for an excellent piece, TTG. And for lots of great posts above. The only time I’ve ever watched England play football live was an U21s game at White Hart Lane about 20 years ago. I went as much to check out their place in reasonably safe circumstances and to share the company of a few mates as I did for the actual football. I’ve no idea who we played, who played for us, or what the score was.
That probably says a lot about my interest in international football. I like watching England in the big competitions and give them my full support, but I care less than I used to. I boycotted the entire WC in Qatar, my love of England not enough to cross the hurdle of the shameful FIFA corruption necessary to stage the competition in a country that was inappropriate (and that’s a very mild way of putting it). I like it when there are a few Arsenal players in the team – long may that last!
But, frankly, i’ll watch us on the TV in major tournaments and catch the occasional friendly or qualifier if I haven’t got better plans, and that’s quite enough for me.
I should add, that I’d genuinely love it if England won another WC, or even a Euro’s. But I’d much rather see Arsenal lift Big Ears.
Of course, this season we are on for both…
I’d love to see some stats about how often a team who have just sacked their manager play Arsenal in the next game. It seems like it happens way more than an even statistical spread would allow for. Ange for Forest is pretty funny. Especially as they are banging on about his proven record of winning trophies, rather than his proven record of losing PL matches. I’m glad i didn’t predict them to be in the top half in the Predictathon. If only I could adjust my prediction downwards!
GSD @ 72, this is the best gpt-5 can do:
Here are the confirmed occasions (Premier League + FA Cup + League Cup, 1995-present) when Arsenal faced a side in their first match under a newly appointed manager/head coach
Confirmed instances
Date Competition Opponent (new boss) Notes / Outcome
4 Feb 2023 Premier League Everton (Sean Dyche) Dyche’s first game as Everton manager; Everton beat Arsenal 1–0.  
11 Aug 2019 Premier League Newcastle United (Steve Bruce) Bruce’s first game in charge; Arsenal won 1–0 at St James’ Park. 
15 Sep 2019 Premier League Watford (Quique Sánchez Flores – return) QSF’s first game back after being re-appointed; 2–2 draw.   
14 Jan 2017 Premier League Swansea City (Paul Clement) Clement’s home/Liberty Stadium debut as manager; Arsenal won 4–0.  
9 Aug 2015 Premier League West Ham United (Slaven Bilić) Bilić’s first PL match as West Ham boss; West Ham won 2–0 at the Emirates.  
27 Nov 2021 Premier League Newcastle United (Eddie Howe) Howe’s first game on the touchline post-appointment (after COVID); Arsenal won 2–0.  
Notes on inclusion
• I’ve counted the opponent’s first competitive match after appointment (or first match present on the touchline, if they missed the actual opener due to COVID, as with Eddie Howe).
• For Paul Clement, his first game in charge was an FA Cup tie days earlier; Arsenal were his first home PL opponents, which contemporary reports label his Liberty Stadium debut. 
⸻
So hands up. Who didn’t want Madueke?
Very good performance by England. Declan clearly saving his goals for Arsenal.
Rice and Madueke were prominent in England’s demolition of Serbia last night and the latter was, as he was for Arsenal against Liverpool, the most threatening attacker on the field. I see that Ødegaard played 90 minutes and got a goal and two assists for Norway in their close run thing against Moldova. Hopefully they and the other Arsenal players involved in international games return without any injuries.
I can confirm that there is no winner of the Predictathon Tin Tack Award this season. Scott Parker let down many more than just OM, as did Keith Andrews at Brentford, the other most-nominated manager.
Had I known Scott Parker was a manager I would have picked him also. I thought he was a street florist outside Angel tube station.
To add to Dr. F @73 on new manager bounce: a study of PL managers, covering the five seasons from 2019-20 to 2023-24, found 38.6% won their first game in charge, 36.4% lost their first game, and 25.0% got a draw.
The study excluded caretaker managers (which left a set of 44 new managers). However, it made no distinction between those who started in the off-season and those appointed during the season, or the point in the season at which they came in. It also took no account of other factors that would influence a result, such as whether the new manager’s first game was home or away, the quality of the opposition and whether their new team was already staring at relegation.
A different, longer-term study of mid-season appointments (166 from 1993 to 2024) that defined the bounce as the manager’s first five games, did find a statistically significant impact, with more than three-quarters of new managers improving their team’s points per game and goal difference compared to the five matches before their appointment. However, the gains — an average increase of 0.53 points per game and an improved goal difference of 0.76 goals — are not in themselves high enough to necessarily change results. A majority of new managers’ teams were still conceding more goals than they were scoring, but the margins of defeat were narrowing.
Thanks for the research Dr F – and to our busy monkly friends as well.
It seems that the new manager mid-season bounce amounts to making
the team slightly less crap than before. Not sure that will apply here as
Nuno wasn’t fired for being as gratifyingly useless as he was at the
spuds but more due to Edu’s desire for control.
It’s odd that Marinakis is considered a fit and proper person by the PL
as he doesn’t seem very proper and certainly looks very unfit.
Though when you look at the other PL owners it suddenly doesn’t seem
odd at all.
Will Ange become the new high priest of counterattacking football, or will Forest become a high-pressing tornado that blows away Forest’s formidable defence as often as it does the opposition? Gibbs-White may be regretting staying.
Perhaps Marinakis will clean house
and appoint Agent Levy instead of
Agent Edu
OM@83: 🙂
Chelsea have been charged with 74 breaches of the FA’s regulations on agents, intermediaries and third party investments. The charges relate to incidents between 2009 and 2022, primarily between 2010-11 and 2015-16.
I predict Ange will lead Forest to a trophy that nobody cares about and at the same time lead them to relegation.
I’m surprised there was not more response to C100’s post about our friends from the Bus Stop. While C130y have rightly generated lots of annoyance from Gooners because of their ( alleged financial chicanery- City deny all charges ) the Chavs are accused of dodgy dealing 72 times which, if proven , would explain why they were able to sign the players they did , including Hazard , Havertz , Thiago Silva, Diego Costa and Willian among so many others .
If proven and taken at its most severe they acted illegally in luring players to the club against the league’s rules regarding transfers and distorted competition during a period where they enjoyed great success. They reported themselves – blowing the whistle on a past regime but they should face a serious points deduction.
It will be interesting to see how the League handle this. If they do hit Chelsea hard they can’t let off a side with almost double the number of infractions . Chelsea have effectively pleaded guilty
interesting stuff from two of the best in the business.
@86 TTG
Just personally I find C130+y more annoying because of their blatant lies, oh sorry, allegedly blatant lies I should say 😂 They seem to think they can do what they like
and the rest of us should shut our mouths, standard dictator thinking I suppose.
But you’re right of course that Abramovich was a crook and a very dodgy one
at that. As it was systematic cheating I would like to see many of his enablers at the club be banned from football as well as any points deduction that would only hit the people who have actually held their hands up.
I forgot to add that several of the trophies won during the period in question should be removed if it’s found that competition was distorted. Though it may be difficult to measure what distortion is actually meaningful – a reserve right-back may not have made much difference but 4 or 5 first-teamers certainly would.
Would it be too harsh to make them rename the club Bus Stop in Fulham FC?
>>>>>>>