Two injury time goals of quality and invention by Gabriel Martinelli and Nicolas Pépé clinched a very important 3-1 victory for the Gunners, after Christian Benteke had again frustrated his favourite opponents with a goal to equalise a well-taken strike by Pépé on the half-hour. Results must go their way on Sunday but whisper it quietly we could see St. Totteringham’s Day coincide with Arsenal achieving a twenty sixth successive season in Europe.
Arsenal paraded their new yellow away kit on a showery evening at Selhurst Park. Their team was fairly predictable although Gabriel partnered Holding in the centre of a four with Saka wide left and Pépé on the right with Aubameyang upfront centrally.
Early exchanges saw Arsenal on the front foot and Anthony Taylor looked in a benign mood giving Schlupp only a yellow for a heavy and late challenge on Chambers, and Ward for possibly an accidental kick out at Tierney. I was here last year when Aubameyang was sent off and Schlupp’s challenge was of similar ferocity.
Arsenal’s early play was mainly focused on the right wing with ESR working cleverly with Pépé but the first goal threat was from Cahill for Palace who was narrowly wide with a header. Despite a bright opening in terms of ball movement Arsenal failed to create much and on 22 minutes Tomkins tested Leno with a header that he grabbed by his left hand post.
Pépé so far was in one of his frustrating moods and Palace were bringing Townsend and Zaha back to block off space on the right side. Palace, who have been awful at home this season, seemed notably lifted by a home contingent of 6,500 and the game was lively if tight. Arsenal forced a series of corners without really threatening and on 27 minutes a fine piece of covering by Ward saw him block Auba from converting an ESR cross at the near post.
Benteke was looking threatening and had a free header over on the half hour. We then saw Saka brought down by Guaita but he was ruled just offside, Schlupp then tested Leno with a fierce shot as it became increasingly clear that Palace were up for this in Roy Hodgson’s last home game.
Not for the first time I was impressed with young Mitchell, the Palace left-back, who allowed Pépé little rope until, on 35 minutes, Tierney got in on the left after combining delightfully with Saka and crossed it to Pépé who scored with a cushioned finish off his right foot. A well-worked goal and evidence of Pépé’s value to the team.
Palace 0 Arsenal 1 (Pepe 35)
Immediately afterwards Benteke fouled Saka and then appeared to strike Elneny on the chin. Both players were yellow-carded when Benteke definitely might have seen red. Tierney was being booed by the Palace fans, presumably because he was playing so well. They’ve never been the most knowledgeable crowd.
Elneny was working extremely hard and popping the ball off nicely. He ended the half seemingly building bridges with the lucky Benteke as they walked off with Arsenal ahead at the break. We were told unhelpfully that Benteke was spared a red because he connected with ‘negligible force‘. No, I wasn’t impressed either.
Half-time: Palace 0 Arsenal 1
Palace were attacking the Holmesdale End in the second half and began enterprisingly with Benteke immediately heading a Townsend cross over. Aubameyang was still looking out of sorts and fails to give the team much in the way of hold-up play. He was beaten to a Chambers cross at the far post by Ward.
Arsenal were pressing without looking able to create a clear chance. It was a very strongly-contested game and Palace are a strong, physical side. News of the Marshdwellers defeat gave Arsenal a chink of light in their European quest, wherever that may lead them, but there was much work to do without clear midfield control. To experienced Arsenal watchers this was increasingly disquieting. A left-sided free kick found Benteke and he continued to be our Nemesis as he dived to head past Leno. An interminable VAR delay ensued and we know how that ends. There were decent claims for offside and a push on Elneny but the goal was given.
Palace 1 (Benteke 62) Arsenal 1
Shortly afterwards Zaha’s vertigo returned and he claimed a quite ridiculous penalty against Holding. Arsenal had lost their shape and control. Ødegaard replaced Saka. Could they recapture a degree of control? Leno thwarted the troublesome Benteke at his near post and with 70 minutes played Arsenal were struggling. Part of the problem was a lack of physicality and a lack of character. Partey was fading after a strong start.
Zaha despite his labyrinthitis problems is always a threat. Ødegaard was notably less imposing than ESR had been in a central role. Tierney, much to the scorn of the Palace fans, was substituted by Martinelli as Xhaka came on for the hugely underwhelming Partey. Or was it the other way round? We didn’t lay out £45 million in straight cash for a central midfielder we have to bring off at the climax of games.
Good defending by Gabriel cleared a dangerous Schlupp cross away, Ayew prodded a weak header at Leno and as Arsenal broke Aubameyang failed to convert an excellent Chambers cross. Palace’s last game was at the weekend but they appeared much the fresher side.
Arsenal had a long period of playing the ball across the pitch trying to work a crossing position without playing a ball, but then Ødegaard found himself on the ball on the edge of the area. His clever ball to the far post found Martinelli who knocked it over Guaita and bundled it in.
Palace 1 Arsenal 2 (Martinelli 90+ 1)
While playing out time Pépé took a ball into the heart of the Palace defence, showed wonderful control, and slipped the ball into the net. A superb individual effort that clinched the game for Arsenal.
Palace 1 Arsenal 3 (Pepe 90 + 4)
Final score – Palace 1 Arsenal 3
So Arsenal snatched victory from the jaws of what looked likely to be a very disappointing draw . As usual with Arsenal we had more questions than answers. Why did we fade so badly? Why can’t we defend set-pieces properly, and were Aubameyang and Partey, our most fêted players, the most disappointing performers on the night?
On the positive side I liked Leno reinventing himself as a cross-catching goalkeeper. Dave Seaman and Bob Wilson will be delighted and perhaps surprised. I thought Rob Holding continued a fine run of form. Tierney was terrific going forward in the first half and Elneny had a very efficient match. Above all, Arteta’s substitutions worked well and Martinelli’s vigour and awareness won the game; Pépé showed real quality to take his total for the season to 14.
Palace waved farewell to Roy Hodgson with a crystal eagle. It’s not a solid gold Invincible trophy but he has stabilised Palace. Has Arteta galvanised Arsenal to a welcome chance of European salvation?
If you haven’t yet read ‘Fan Memories of the ’71 Double’ Part 1 or Part 2, Clive’s ‘Personal Memories of the Road to the ’71 Cup Final‘, or Ray’s ‘Personal Overview of the 1970-71 Season‘, click on the links to catch up with these wonderful reminiscences. And be sure to watch both Episode 1 and Episode 2 of the video conversations with Bob Wilson and Pat Rice; Episode 2 is also linked below. Our auction of signed memorabilia is still open and about to enter its final week – check out the items below.
THE CONVERSATION: EPISODE TWO
And again…the second part of the conversation, and the second part of our Double Celebration!
GHF.com are pleased to release this, especially considering the Arsenal events of these past few weeks. Lift your spirits by watching the second episode of two video conversations with Bob Wilson and Pat Rice about Arsenal’s 1970-71 Double year, on the 50th Anniversary of our FA Cup win over Liverpool at Wembley. Remember to donate to Willow, or bid on the GHF.com Auction!
Click on the image below (or on the Youtube link below that) to watch
“Episode Two: Double Glory — The 1971 FA Cup Run”
Or, watch here: “Episode Two: Double Glory — The 1971 FA Cup Run“ (on Youtube). This is especially helpful if you’re having any loading issues with the link to the one the site is serving above.
Let us know what you think in the “drinks” section below!
THE AUCTION: NOW ACCEPTING BIDS
We are also pleased to remind you that our auction of signed 1970-71 Double memorabilia is open for bids through 23 May! For full information, please visit The Double/Willow Auction tab above.
Just a taste…the lots offered are as follows:
Lot 1: A 1971 Cup Final replica shirt signed by Bob Wilson, Pat Rice, Frank McLintock, George Graham & Charlie George.
Lot 2: A 1971 Cup Final programme signed by Bob Wilson, Pat Rice, Frank McLintock, George Graham & Charlie George.
Lot 3: A second 1971 Cup Final programme signed by Bob Wilson, Pat Rice, Frank McLintock, George Graham & Charlie George.
Lot 4: Bob Wilson’s autobiography, ‘Behind the Network’ signed by Bob Wilson & Arsène Wenger.
All proceeds from the auction go to the Willow Foundation.
TTG. Labrythinitis. Heh. 😂😂
Won 13, drawn five, lost five since Christmas. GD + 20. This team, my friends, is going places next year.
If we had changed managers at Christmas, and a new manager had achieved that, we’d be lauding him as a hero. Think on. I am hugely looking forward to next season.
This team, my friends, is going places next year.
Yeah. Seventh*.
Sort of tongue in cheek, but it’s not like we’ve been very convincing during that run. There’s been the odd game here and there and the odd spell in other games, but we’ve been at our self destructive worst too often. I don’t see that habit of blasting both feet off at the ankles going anywhere in a hurry.
*I say that because I’m sort of hoping for eighth this season. Conference Europa League would be a tournament only for the youths and prize money, it has no other value at all. Let Spurs or Everton have it.
Maybe that’s a difference Cynic. I never want Arsenal to lose at anything. If we win Sunday and that gives us the Conference League so be it. I want Arsenal to win every single game.
Our comparator is Leicester. In the last five years they’ve won the league and the Cup.
We can do that.
Acutely observed, TTG. A lifeline grasped that could prove agonisingly too short.
Cynic@4: I, for one, would rather have any European football than none. You don’t want to have to reset the clock on long-running participation. Also, European football is where the likes of Saka and ESR cut their teeth.
i am pleased with that win, and with our overall defensive improvement in the last few games. i feel less certain that we’re going to muck something up, dive in, or otherwise (as cynic says) blasting both feet off. even when they scored, which is going to happen, i didn’t think we were going to lose.
if our defense can play like this or better (keeping the four at back we played tonight as first choice, with alternates in marí, cedric, and a newcomer…hector should be sold this summer), and we can find someone in the middle to be more creative (grealish?), we might score enough goals to turn some defeats into draws and draws into wins next year. today is a prime example of that sort of game, and we were made winners by an exceptional cross and striker’s determination, and a talented run by a player slowly showing why maybe paying £72 million for him wasn’t a dreadful mistake, but was actually a good thing.
if everton beat city, we beat bha, and scum draw or lose to leicester, i’ll be happy. i’m really unsure that i’d want us in that new competition, rather than playing our way into arsenal’s version of artetaball next year.
great report thanks TTG.
Though you did miss the absolutely
crucial point that I nailed the score
😄
Four wins in a row for the first time
in ages is encouraging though I’m
hoping things work out as Scruz says
in his last paragraph @7.
In the interests of fairness, Trev
might have said 3-1 too 😂
To round out the top 10 drinks,
good point from Ned too.
The benefits of introducing young
players vs unwanted (by me) games
in the 2nd half of the season.
Nice one, TTG and super quick time.
I agree with all your conclusions. I have every sympathy with Aubameyang if he is still suffering the long term effects of malaria but he didn’t look fit or quick tonight. Martinelli has to get more game time whether as a starter or from the bench as he provides an energy we otherwise don’t really have. It’s also strange how Lacazette has played less since discovering his best form and work rate.
Some good signs when we attack with determination though. And yes, let’s qualify for everything we can if more youth development is going to be our way forwards.
Lovely result and report. Thank you Thundertiny Gooner.
A bit of fun as we tiptoe toward St. Totteringham’s
Been waiting it seems for a few years for a +90’ match winning goal. Can’t remember that last time we had one…..Welbeck v Leicester? Giroud v Leicester? Can anyone remember the last one? Perhaps the frustrations of this season has affected my memory.
Vermaelan v Newcastle
Henry v United
Welbeck v Leicester
All come to mind.
Aubameyang v Benfica was pretty late
I think we are close to the top of the table for goals scored in the last 15 minutes
Another great tactical blog from Mike McDonald on Gunners Town
https://gunnerstown.com/arsenal/2021/05/20/the-4-minute-rebellion-arsenal-players-seize-the-initiative-and-save-arteta-from-himself/
Thanks, TTG, for a measured and restrained match report. We played well in parts; in the first half and late in the second half. The good part was we saw how exciting Pepe can be when he gets going and also saw a cameo from Martinelli. Arteta has this quirk of dropping Pepe after he has had a good match and is reluctant to start Martinelli. Hope he doesn’t do that against Brighton on Sunday.
I would like us to win the match against Brighton and finish as high as possible and wouldn’t mind getting into the European Conference League. I am not sure if winning that results in automatic qualification to the Europa League in the subsequent year. Finishing above Spurs would be especially pleasing.
An excellent match report TTG of a match made tolerable and won by three fine goals. Yet, oh dear! How turgid were we in that second half? I did think the wheels were going yo come off but credit where due, the defence rode out the storm after that equaliser – how was he not offside? (Also, how did Schloop and Bentecke stay on the pitch?)
You highlight well the problem with Partey who is definitely not the Duracell Bunny. In contrast, Elneny has shown his value to this team over the last couple of games – he’s no Fabregas but every team needs 90 minutes of energy in MF (remember Parlour). On the other hand, Aubameyang was truly aubysmal and no longer seems capable of scoring the type of goal Martinelli did to snatch victory at the end.
I remain open minded about the New Intertoto cup. We do not deserve proper European football after our terrible displays this season and there is much to recommend the view that we should concentrate on the training ground and the league. Yet there is merit also in using it to develop the younger players on the fringes and this knocking at the door such as Azeez and Balogun. Que sera, sera.
Without question however, we do need to finish above the Swampies.
Nice one TTG. Top speed, top quality – top stuff!
I’ve got a few observations in no particular order…
I don’t want to bang on about our set piece coach but our defending for their goal was miserable. Leaving aside the inexplicable fact that VAR did not draw lines to check a close offside, if they had done then they would have been drawn against Auba. Our captain was our player closest to our goal. How can he be playing attackers onside when he is never going to win a defensive header? Amateurish. Gabriel and Elneny rubbish too.
I was almost as wound up as the Palace fans at how long it took us to take throw ins. About 45 seconds for a single player to make a run that actually leaves him available to receive the ball. Really poor.
VAR is a lottery and it’s hard to get upset about oppo players not getting sent off for stuff our players have consistently been sent off for, simply because the form book tells us to expect a very high level of inconsistency and incompetence.
But what frustrates the hell out of me is that I had to wait until 2 minutes after Gabi scored before I cheered. There is no point cheering a goal, until VAR has confirmed it, anymore as too often it leads to egg on faces (Chelsea in the Cup final) or just the sheer misery of having euphoria snatched away.
When I saw a replay showing that Gabi was clearly onside I finally cheered. Only for VAR to do a handball check that made me wish i hadn’t. The technology needs better usage. Stop drawing lines. Only correct genuinely ‘clear and obvious errors’, have a 30 second timer to review incidents and if refs aren’t sure by then it ain’t clear and obvious.
I am 100% with Trev that VAR has sucked the joy out of scoring a goal. Without that, what is football?
Just 11 days to the end of May and of our 50th Double Anniversary celebrations. If you haven’t donated to Willow yet, or made a bid in the auction, we’d be very grateful if you would do so.
I want us to win all our games and finish as high as possible, and of course, to welcome St. Totteringhman back after an unsatisfactory absence. After that, if we end up in the 3rd tier of Europe, then so be it.
But the Europa League ITSELF is shite. The group games are rubbish. This year we played Olympiacos, Slavia and Villareal in the knockout rounds and they were all rubbish too. Any competition that has a semifinal featuring a bang average Villareal side and a bang average Arsenal side is not a high level competition. So, it might have been our current level this season, but it is still rubbish for a European competition. I’d be cheering like crazy if we won it (but also looking forward to a decade passing, so it looked good in the trophy cabinet without so many people remembering it was such a poor quality tournament)
I can only imagine how piss-poor the Europa League conference would be?
As we would have to send Arteta to the matches he would lose time on the training ground. And i think he is a coach who would actually get a lot more from his team if he had more time to work on the training ground, so that would be a huge blow.
I guess we will cross this bridge if/when we come to it but it is hard to see how it would help our first team, and even if we won it we would all feel a bit daft if we celebrated for more than five minutes.
So I’d like to be in it on principle, but it would require some careful handling…
Generally i am optimistic for next season.
As Coutryman says, our form since Christmas is good, and we can all see A LOT of room for improvement. There are a lot of strange-looking results and tables across Europe this year, so we are not alone in having a weird one, and I think things will return a bit more to ‘normal’ next season as fans are back in stadiums etc.
The onus is on Arteta and Edu to do the right business this summer, but i think next season is a clean slate, and I hope we see a much better, clearer vision of a team emerge.
Also, given how much of this season we have spent being crap, it is hilarious that if we beat Brighton at home (with fans back!) that Spurs need to beat Leicester away and Everton to beat City away for them to stay ahead of us.
So on the one hand, VAR should have checked their goal but on the other hand, VAR has sucked all the joy out of the game. Righto :-p
As for the European Nonsense League, if Spurs were in it and won it, we’d be ripping the piss out of their fans for celebrating such a no-mark competition, but for some reason we want to be in it?
You know that scene in Mad Max 2 where the gyro pilot is desperately licking out the dog food can, for any morsel of goodness he can find after Max and his dog have their go at it? Well…
Nice to see debate raging in the bar at last .
If I can give some observations . I decided to write it in real time like Holic used to because it reflects the emotions you suffer during the game . Looking at it again on MOTD ( I only watch it when we win!) it was very clear that Palace should have been down to nine men at half-time . Schlupp’s challenge on Chambers was a potential leg-breaker . Reference Nketiah’s sending-off against Leicester last year . Benteke was pardoned because he didn’t use sufficient force- reference Pepe’s sending-off against Leeds this season . There has to be a common thread in refereeing if the competition is to have any credibility. It’s farcical that if we have VAR United’s goal on Tuesday could stand. I think the argument was that it was such a wonderful goal it should be allowed . Fernandes missed the ball and VAR showed that he did . The goal was offside.
Re Benteke I thought it looked illegal on two counts- offside and a push .Can we expect dubious goals not to be subject to VAR ? I entirely accept GSD’s point about goals . I don’t celebrate any goals until the kick off and one has lost a lot of the spontaneity then . At a game I always check the referee when a goal is scored before celebrating . All three of our goals seemed perfectly ok at the time but I think a goal like Benteke’s needed checking because it was clearly contentious .
Re our form you will see on What’s App that I have posted a table showing over the last 23 games ( 2/3 of the season ) we have been the second most successful club . That suggests we were awful over the first 14 but it dies suggest momentum . When you think in those 23 we lost badly to Everton and Liverpool and drew with Fulham , Palace and Burnley there is room for improvement but we are moving in the right direction . What happened 23 games ago?- we started playing Smith – Rowe !
And continuing the Grumpy Old Man theme, despite his two goals I thought Pepe was poor and I’d sell him.
I lost count of the number of times we played the ball wide, only for him to slow it down, pass it five yards inside, get the return ball, shun the cross and play it backwards. I don’t like seeing triangles played in wide positions unless they’re incisive. Passing it about and wasting opportunities drives me up the wall.
Cynic
I got frustrated by that period close to the end where we pushed the ball around -out wide back inside , rinse and reoeat. I touched on it in the report . Then Odegaard got the ball and switched play to Martinelli and Bingo ! Pepe’s best games this season ( or first half in one case at Wolves ) were the games where he played on the left . Inverted wingers are frustrating- Saka against West Brom was much more effective on the left than he is on the right . Pepe has got a few crackers from the left this season but you know what he is going to do on the right .
I’d keep him unless we get a ridiculous offer . He is one of our main attacking weapons and he’s stepped up his game considerably from last season. Most of his goals are excellent. Those are not tap-ins and he has also set up several goals like the Lacazette equaliser against West Ham . We’ve got much bigger problems than him and writing off a lot of cash ( he’s being paid for over five years ) wouldn’t help us .
Now I’m going to say it . His figures are similar to Theo and you put up with him- and he didn’t go down with injuries like Theo did . I know who I prefer of the two
In 11 seasons at Arsenal Theo reached double figures twice . Once he got 10 and his best season saw him bag 14 ( the same number as Pepe has scored this season ) . But he did score regularly against S***s and Chavski!
Thanks TTG – a very speedy & realistic match summary. Maybe flattered a little by the score line but there have been many cases this season where the reverse has been the case – I’ll take it every time.
C100 @ 1 – I suffered a bout of labrynthitis several years ago – I’ve never been so unsteady on my feet, holding onto furniture was the only was the only way to stop me falling over. It was like being drunk on my feet but without imbibing any alcohol – most surreal ( and disturbing until my doctor advised me the prognosis of a severe inner ear infection).
I was greatly cheered up by the marsh dwellers Spu*sing it up again. Celebrating St Totteringham day on the very last day of the season will be a rare highlight of a mostly disappointing season. Any European participation as a result of such an event is que sera, sera. If it’s the europa conference then we should field teams appropiate to its status.
Excellent report TTG!
We should finish the season as strongly as possible and then whatever happens to the league table happens. If we don’t get European spot our team building plan will be different than if we do, obviously. As GSD points out, there is a certain appeal to just focusing on the domestic football and work more on the training grounds on a smaller and tighter squad. But on the other hand as Ned/Countryman/TTG point out being in Europe is better than not being in it. It’s not about money (little for conference league) or prestige (even less) but more prosaic things like the Club coefficient which will come more and more into the calculation in the Champions league qualifications starting from 2024-2025 season. See https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0268-12157d69ce2d-9f011c70f6fa-1000–new-champions-league-format-explained/ . So it is important to do our best to keep up (and then improve) our club coefficient.
The not-so-important European competition also gives us the opportunity to blood more youngsters just the way we did with Saka, ESR and Gabi. Maybe Azeez and Catalin Cirjan next?
Good to see Pépé’s unique set of abilities are finding more consistent expressions in the matchday and earning a broader set of appreciative comments. He has 14 goals and 5 assist this season, up from the 8 goals and 10 assists of last season, but more noticeably the structure, discipline and defensive workrate have all improved (and I think Mikel should get a lot of credit for that). In the first half of the season if we had played him and Reiss more consistently (and Martinelli more in the second half) than someone else we may have had earned a few more points. He still has a lot of scope for improvements but he remains one of the very few in this line-up who can bring genuine goal-scoring threat and unpredictability in the final third.
Martinelli (along with Gabriel6) will be away with the Brazilian U-23 team at the Olympics, so his start to the season will be unfortunately a little delayed. But the next season should be a big one for him, dovetailing with Saka, ESR, Pépé and one more CAM (Ødegaard or not) and a central striker (a rejuvenated Aubameyang?) …
Between Allardyce and Antonio I think everyone knows which is the disgusting one. That is all.
And it’s not the one who called the other one disgusting to be clear.
Cynic @25.
Next season I think they should not check the Benteke goal. They should scrap this bollocks about linos making no offside calls and letting VAR call it after it has played out. Linos should make an honest call and it should only be VARd if it is clearly and obviously wrong.
However, (and in a statement I have no idea how any Gooner could disagree with) after an entire season of every decision being VARd, I did not wish to see the first time all year it has not been used when a possibly offside bloke scored against us.
I don’t think that is contradictory in the least.
Pepe looked like he should be out the door for a season and a half but has improved considerably in the last few months. The ESR effect at work on an unexpected front?
Theo may have been “rubbish” but at least he was “rubbish” at speed and it was over quickly, not dragged out while he tried laboriously to get it onto his good foot, only to lay it off and stand still. Where’s the tongue in cheek emoji? 🙂
Anyway… I wouldn’t be offering him a new contract, so with him entering the middle year of his deal, that’s one reason I would sell. If the offer was good enough. Once you get into the last two years the value goes right down the pipes and I don’t see him being anything more than he is now.
Excellent debate in the bar today everyone!
I was initially a supporter of VAR, and still am just about but I hope it’s just used for offsides on goals next season. No more of the clear and obvious error subjective bollocks. What’s the point of people like Atwell, Moss etc reviewing decisions made by Taylor, Dean etc? Just a waste of technology. Offside is simply a technical decision so by all means have a tech draw a line and then tell the ref. First step should be root and branch reform of the PGMOL as it is not fit for purpose.
@31
“If it’s the Europa Conference then we should field teams appropriate to its status”
Absolutely agree Uply and will dig my old boots out of the cupboard during the close season.
The relegation of Schalke has coincided with the departure of Mustafi . Hopefully Kolasinac will stay . Ozil has one assist in 10 games and fitness problems. Mavropanos has done well but struggles with injury . In England AMN has failed to hold down a regular place in a relegated side but Willock has pulled up trees and possibly boosted his transfer value…should we choose to sell him . Among the lesser known players , Ballard has had a very good season at Blackpool by all accounts but nobody else has been a standout success .
Of our players on loan from elsewhere we know Ceballos is going back to Real . He hasn’t warranted a regular starting spot this season . As for Odegaard it is always a soap opera with players with clubs like Real Madrid . Until he played that pass to Gabi I was of the view that there might be cheaper alternatives. He is worth keeping at the right price which would be no more than £30 million . Another one year loan might be a nice solution.
OM @ 39.
I could not disagree more strongly with your assertion that ‘offside is simply a technical decision’. As we have seen all season, the lines get drawn from different parts of the body match by match. There is no point in a technology claiming that level of precision when it is subjectively applied.
And, although the refs are rubbish, I think no one could ever make this technology work to that degree of specificity. We can always argue about precisely where a legitimately goalscoring part of a player’s body starts. And in a debate where 3cm can make all the difference it is pointless.
And Trev also reckons it is hard to tell exactly when the ball leaves a players foot for the pass. A fair point when it is another variable that sees different applications game by game.
I go completely the other way to you. I want to see VAR change offsides that are wrongly given by a foot or more (anything that can be seen on one viewing with the naked eye within a few seconds)
I want refs to be able to look again at contentious fouls that they only see in real time (although this process needs review) and make their own call. With a time limit.
I agree that the current refs cannot be allowed to be their own policeman.
And one of the reasons I refuse to pay for BT is Peter Walton.
Furthermore, the line-drawing takes ages and is dull as shit. And when fans are back in stadiums it is not explainable. Utter rubbish. It is the opposite of what I consider good use of the technology.
‘Clear and obvious error’ is a fantastic principle.
I would love it if the refs tried applying it.
TTG@41: Among the loanees out the two French youngsters are doing well enough. Saliba more so than Guendouzzi who probably doesn’t feature in Mikel’s plan anyway. Him and Torreira both will go up for sale, most likely.
Saliba has been consistent and for a 21 year old played with a lot of confidence and composure in the central defense. He will give holding good competition and provide back-up for the right sided role.
If we don’t get Europe I suspect all of AMN, Eddie, Reiss, and even Joe will be sold. If we have Europe Joe and AMN will get good playing time.
Dr.F
We have so many out I lose track!
I would love to see what Saliba can do . He could potentially replace Luiz .
Guendouzi is apparently very hard to manage and hasn’t turned the world upside down at Hertha who don’t want him. I think he is going to Marseille. Torreira has had a very unsuccessful loan at Atletico not helped by family tragedy . He has apparently set his heard on a move to Boca Juniors but they are less keen and can’t afford him . Newcastle are desperate to sign Willock . You’d hope that we could raise £100 million from the sale of Bellerin, Mavropanos, Torreira, Guendouzi, AMN , Willock , Nketiah , Nelson and possibly Xhaka 🙏😃
Some of them (5) are homegrown and that may dictate their attractiveness to Arteta . From recent selections Bellerin is definitely off
If I was Willock I would go to Newcastle, given the chance. He’s pretty much kept them up, apparently likes the area and would be playing every week. At Arsenal he’d be in and out. More out than in, most likely.
guendouzi’s value has been affected by his recent broken foot, at least this summer.
i’d bring willock back, i’d love to watch him in a midfield with partey sitting deep, and esr up front, willock running box to box. we’ve scored two similar goals from cutbacks to late runners recently (esr and pépé), and if that becomes a feature in our build-up (rather than the u-bend of doom) i could see willock making real hay there.
was it my imagination yesterday or did we settle down at back when xhaka came on for kt3? not that we were bad at the back until then, but i’d have to rewatch the game and see what xhaka contributed. absent a review, did we go to a back three at that point?
Is it feasible to track players’ positions in real-time using LIDAR technology so it would be possible to compute who is and is not in an offside position at any moment of the game and committing an offside offence? Another algorithm could identify the moment the ball was kicked and match it with the list of offside players at that moment. It should take just seconds. The cameras must already be there for VAR so it would be a question of what computational power would be needed. It would not eliminate the by-a-toe-nail decisions, but at least it would be consistent.
ned you could probably mark where is a particular transmitter on a player, combine that with rt lidar data and say “that player is there then” at the moment the ball is kicked…but the moment of kicking could involve a large fraction of a second, from the time the boot touches the ball to the time the ball leaves the boot…which is it, for offside purposes?
of course, that’s assuming none of the lidar data is blocked by another player’s presence, and that the determination of exactly what part of the arm (for example; how long is an upper arm?) is a “legal, playbable part of the body” is consistent.
sounds to me like the monks have some work to do, designing that system. be sure they patent it!
Impressive half tonnage.
Any Scotsmen attending? From Arsenal’s website: “We’re pleased to announce we will visit Easter Road on Tuesday, July 13 to play Hibernian in a pre-season friendly.
Also part of our four day Scottish sojourn is a game against Rangers on the 17th. Arteta’s old club, if I’m right.
Lots of anti Pepe feeling from some drinkers.
So, I’ve had a couple (down the pub with mates for the first time tonight since December) and I would like to make this prediction.
Pepe will be one of our stand out players next year, with 20+ goals.
Ned
Arsène Wenger recently suggested a system like this is not far from completion. It would still require checks on whether the ball was deflected en route although I imagine cameras could track this as well . It could register on the ref’s watch like the goalline technology now . That would reduce so much of the friction in the game now and be much easier to accept for all concerned . Like you are either pregnant or not you are offside or not and provided the assessment was accurate we would soon accept it just as Hawkeye technology has been accepted in tennis
TTG. I’m not sure the pregnancy analogy works. In theory, it is fine, but it is actually possible to tell whether someone is pregnant, but not so clear whether someone is offside.
You can’t be pregnant by 1 centimetre.
I’ve been an advocate of Pepe for the last two years. Often against the majority. I’m with Countryman in thinking next season he will do the business.
As well as some other frustrating shit.
But the lad is one hell of a player. Real quality.
Good lad GSD.
How do I mark a drink for later re drinking?
20 goals next season? Not a chance. Mark that one for redrinking if a miracle happens. 🙂
Mind you, if we did end up playing a load of Azerbaijani bakers in the Europa Conference, he might do it, so I will qualify my certainty by adding that no goals scored in that competition count.
Arteta is dressed like fucking Al*x fErguson
jesus mary and joseph
“This team, my friends, is going places next year.”
GSD
In tennis if Hawkeye says a ball is out , it is out. In cricket if DRS says a ball is hitting the wicket it means the batsmen is out. In football a technologically driven offside decision akin to the sort of thing Ned describes will produce an immediate assessment and just like in tennis or cricket you accept the decision as players do with goal-line technology .So offside is binary . If the system says you are offside..no argument . Everyone would accept that if it looks accurate and especially if it takes tte decision away from Stockley Park
GSD,
I can’t say I disagree strongly with your various assertions because as far as I can see you want the game to move more quickly and I’m all in favour of that too.
Offside should be a simple decision and you can certainly be offside by one cm, but agree again the gymnastics of this season should stop. You are offside or you aren’t, it doesn’t matter what part of your body and it’s the same for everyone.
“Clear and obvious” is reasonable in theory but if this season has proved anything it is that refs cannot apply it consistently, no point to me in banging our heads against a brick ref, give it up. It’s for some sunlit future when we have well-trained professional match officials capable of quick, consistent decision-making.
Pepe is doing well, why would we sell him? 15 goals, 10 assists next season is easily possible. Baffles me why some keep slagging him. He actually did ok last season too and
has now improved just as we wanted.
TTG,
I think AMN has actually started more games than Joe W on loan, though Joe has grabbed the headlines now that he’s a goal machine – (I haven’t checked).
Agree with Cynic that it’d be better to let him move on as he won’t be a starter for us if he returns. I’ve no objection to giving him another season if he does come back, maybe the loan has changed him but I doubt he’s the CM we need and we have better options at AM.
You are right, OM. AMN had 13 starts for WBA, playing the full 90 minutes in ten, plus one appearance off the bench. No goals and two assists. Willock had 10 starts for Newcastle, playing the full 90 in six, plus three appearances off the bench. Seven goals and no assists.
I have always liked AMN and think he is one of those Ray Parlour-type players every squad needs. I can see him fitting better into the 4-3-3 Arteta says he want to play eventually than the 4-2-3-1 now being used. I suspect the opposite is true for Joe. As you say, it is difficult to see him displacing any of our current first choices as a 10 or 8.
Scruz, TTG: on offsidetech, I did wonder if the GPS devices the players now wear to monitor performance could be used to track their positions, but reckoned that they weren’t accurate enough and would make offside a question of whether the centre of the attacker’s chest was in front of or behind the centre of the defender’s chest, which might make decisions even more complexing. But wearable transmitters woven into the kit that LIDAR could track is intriguing.
Arsenal are supposed to be interested in Emi Buendia of Norwich. He is 24 years old, an attacking midfielder who plays on the right side, is a two footed player and was the player of the championship this season. He had 15 goals and 16 assists in 39 games this season and has now been called up by the Argentine national team. Valued at around £35 to £40 m, I will take him over Odegaard any day. If we get him, Max Aarons (right back) Norwich and Bissouma from Brighton we would really have added steel to the team, strengthened the team in both attack and defence.
My two penn’orth in the VAR/ offside debate.
Assume it is towards the end of a game. Side A has a corner and everyone goes up for it. The centre forward o& side B takes a risk and hopes for the ball to come to him, so just facing the keeper to score at the other end. He stands six inches inside the half way line, on his own side. This comes to pass. One if his players gains control of the bal and lumps it up to him. He is standing in his own half but gaining an advantage by leaning in such a way that his head is over the line? Would anyone say he is offside? I wouldn’t. For me offside us where the feet are planted. That should be the sole basis on which offside is calculated. No bizarre triangulation from elbows one week and shoulders the next.
This would have the advantage if simplification and removing the element of, shall we say , subjectivity being applied by Stockley Park.
I await incoming fire……
No fire from me CER, I don’t mind if we use that basis, as long as we stick with it for the season.
I completely agree with CER & OM – offside should be measured from where the front foot is planted – I could never understand why they were measuring other parts of one’s anatomy. Players wearing size 7 boots will be at an advantage over those with big clod-hoppers who wear size 12s and this should be a factor in transfer decisions 😉
TTG @64
The 2 bits of tech you mention are both Hawkeye and both simple ball-tracking. Football already uses this to tell whether the whole ball has crossed the line.
I imagine the tech to accurately measure all the moving parts in an offside call is harder make so accurate. But if they can do it then that sounds like an excellent solution.
BBC headline: “Joe Willock to stay with Gunners next season, says boss Mikel Arteta”
In truth, Willock did so well he really gave Arsenal no other choice. If he went somewhere else next season and did anywhere close to as well as he did with Newcastle on loan everybody would be crucifying the Arsenal management for incompetence.
AMN can’t be left out of the equation either with those appearance statistics at West Brom.
“Tottenham players are said to be shocked by Kane’s decision to go public about his desire to leave.” (Mirror)
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Shocked. SHOCKED, I tell you.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
We should be careful about interpreting what Arteta is saying about our loanees or any other player, for that matter. His default position is that any player with an Arsenal contract is at the club for as long as that contract lasts. To my ear, he chose his words about Hector and Joe Willock carefully, Like everybody that has a contract, [Bellerin] remains here andwe will have a conversation with [Willock] and plan the next years for him . That plan could be anything from another loan to a squad role, regular starts, or being sold. It also has to fit the overall rebuilding blueprint and be one the player buys into, too.
ned@69 lidar is a laser pulse return process, not a transmitter read process. a laser sends out pulses of energy and the capture device with the laser reads any return signals (“clouds” of data), which are then processed based on intensity into 3-d images of what was being pulsed. it basically measures instantaneous distance of the particular object from the lidar.
here’s a company doing the work that could be adapted for use in a system like you propose. the resolution would be the only problem, how close to the actual position are you getting, are there smoothing algorithms, etc. https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20191113005007/en/Velodyne-Expert-Addresses-Lidar-Use-Cases-to-Improve-Security-and-Safety-Performance
the players wouldn’t need to wear anything particular other than perhaps their gps transmitter, which data could be tied to the lidar data for accurate identification of the players. the definition of “when kicked” and “what part of body can be offside” still create problems.
GSD
Scruz looks like he has nailed it in his note but I was thinking of something akin to the mobile phone triangulation technology that exists now which coordinates several variables It occurred to me we might be inventing something very valuable here so it’s best to keep it under wraps until we get to the patent office . I will go in first .
And another tip. My record producer mate who had the ‘ honour ‘ of composing a song for Cyprus in the Eurovision Song Contest ( and who contributed generously to our Willow appeal) told a number of his friends to join him in backing Iceland tomorrow. Whilst Covid has interfered in their preparation , if they do it I will be rich beyond the dreams of avarice and may whisk off Mrs TTG to a green list country for fun and frolics . Or we may buy a takeaway .
Amid his press conference today Arteta suggested that the problems we experienced in the autumn when we lost so many games were due to problems within the club and suggested these were rectified in January . He could be referring to Ozil, Kolasinac, Sokratis or Saliba or all of them but it is a credible claim especially given the problems experienced at Schalke . Mustafi has already been let go . I heard that there was a problem with Luiz and Willian around this time but it may have been tittle tattle of which there is so much on Twitter. He also appeared very confident that he could persuade players to sign for Arsenal . The big rumour at the moment appears to be about Buendia
Well, Ozil, Kola and Mus seem to have been close so maybe a dressing room clique type thing?
Buendia has had a good season in the championship but got 1 goal in 36 games in the PL the season before (according to Wikipedia anyway). Not sure why we need him as the competition among the wide players is already tough
Italy the hot favourite, Iceland available at 16s and the UK at 500/1 for the patriotically inclined
🎶 “Rule Britannia” is bound to carry the day, OM!
Scruz@79: Thanks for the link.
you’re welcome, ned.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>