Hello again everyone, I hope the day finds you well and looking forward at least a tad more positively to the coming months. In May and June, society will dust itself down and emerge in whatever form is deemed safest in each country and that will include football. Welcome back to us all and fingers crossed for a successful re-launch of Project Humanity.
In the meantime we have today’s piece, the theme of which, as you may have guessed from the title, is forgiveness. In these difficult times it is more futile than ever to harbour old resentments. Wiser to let them go, though few people in my experience hold grudges better than your average football fan. This is of course an Arsenal blog, and therefore I shall endeavor to forgive those who have annoyed me by slighting our bold and pure Arsenal men down the years. A tenuous thread you may think, gossamer was to be honest my own thought, but a thread it is and that’s good enough for me.
The title, I should clarify, is a reference to the 1992 Oscar winning Western. A hugely enjoyable film, in which Clint faces many difficulties and solves them by killing most everyone who disagrees with him, it was honoured possibly for the extra time an unusually reflective Clint devoted to mulling things over. Not much forgiveness there I wean, but it also contained the usual quota of memorable lines, one of which “deserves got nothing to do with it” , as Clint kindly reassures Gene Hackman before he blows him away, is central to this post. Although another memorable line “who’s the fella owns this shithole?” did strike me as very useful for the travelling faithful at the turnstiles on away days, but I digress.
The Unforgiven XI
Deserve often does have nothing to do with it in football, be that results on the field or recognition off it. As personally I have no wish to blow anyone away, or at home come to that, I would instead like to offer some absolution using the pen not the colt and an Arsenal XI made up of players who, in my personal opinion, have been unfairly served by supporters, managers or the media. For some, especially in the 70s and 80s that was reflected in a lack of international caps, for others it was events off the pitch or the unforgiveable sin of playing in an unsuccessful side.
The one clear criteria for selection in the Unforgiven XI is that I saw them play, which means post 1970 as the first game I remember is the 1971 Cup Final. To my Dad’s annoyance he couldn’t get a ticket for that final although he’d been a regular for many years by then, but to me it actually meant the purchase of our first colour TV. If I am honest it is probably my 6 year-old sense of wonder at the glorious colour rather than the football that has ensured the memory is still so strong after all these years. Whatever it was, we won the cup and I was hooked! The very next day my Mum delivered the first disappointment of my football life when she forbade a trip to SHL on the flimsy grounds of it being too dangerous for a 6 year old. Dad did have tickets for that one (I found his ticket stub amongst his prized possessions a couple of years ago when he passed and am looking at it as I write, it is an evocative aide memoire and if I may be permitted another digression, exactly the sort of memento I’d like to leave my own kids one day as it is priceless to me), and the double was duly delivered. We’d won 2 trophies in my first 3 days as a supporter. Talk about jumping on the bandwagon. To be fair to my Mum, she also stopped a trip with my Dad to Hillsborough for a cup semi-final two years later with the same ageist nonsense. That loss to Sunderland, was, in retrospect, a kind of ending for many of my first team of Arsenal heroes, but then again not going probably spared me a fair degree of trauma based on Dad’s choleric report of events. All this is not in fact completely off the point as the first love is the deepest and hopefully offers some clue as to why several of that team will feature in the XI. I’ve held some of these grudges for a long time.
Next year will be my golden anniversary as a Gooner (a league title would be a nice gift Mikel) and in all those long years the spuds haven’t won the league (see clock to the right) and I have watched some amazing players – George, Brady, Seaman, Adams, Wright, Bergkamp, Pires, Vieira, Henry to name a few – but the XI below will include none of them. In fact I have never tried to make a greatest Arsenal XI as I find it too difficult to compare players across eras and brilliant is brilliant as far I am concerned, I’m just happy to have watched any of them play for The Arsenal.
Onward to the XI
I am sure many will disagree on many of the points and you are very welcome to your views, I honestly look forward to reading them all. However, this is about releasing my own personal and sometimes I must admit petty resentments on a brief trip through the years so without further ado the side is named firstly in full below – for the benefit of those who want to skip straight to the selections they find most baffling!
Rimmer
Rice Simpson Vermaelen McNab
Robson Davis Talbot Armstrong
Stapleton Chapman
Jimmy Rimmer
Rimmer was well liked by supporters and Player of the Year in 1975. He played in a side that finished in 16th, 17th and 8th over his 3 seasons before being let go when we signed Pat Jennings. He moved to Villa where he won League and European Cup medals. A good career and so why is he in the team? I still think Rimmer saved us from relegation in his first two seasons, he was outstanding behind a creaky defence in a generally dire team and I loved watching him. He would I believe be rated far higher by supporters if he’d played in a better Arsenal side. Personally, I rate only Seamen as clearly better for Arsenal among all the keepers I’ve seen, but I finally accept that other supporters who think Lukic was better are not actually insane and forgive them all.
Pat Rice
A shoo in for the Arsenal Hall of Fame if we had one. Rice won multiple honours as a player, captain and coach at Arsenal. What possible grudge could there be? In 1978 we played Ipswich in the FA Cup Final and lost 1-0, deservedly so to be honest. In the build-up to the game there had been much press attention given to Clive Woods as the Ipswich dangerman, To be fair Woods had been having a good season and was a tricky left winger. In the game itself I thought that Rice played him well, in general limiting his crosses and his threat. The commentator however kept right to the press narrative and endlessly referenced the torrid time Rice was having. Total nonsense and very annoying. Why do commentators do this? In this case, I understand now that many are simply jealous of The Arsenal because we are better than them. Therefore, I forgive the disrespect to the great Pat Rice and recognize it was just jealousy and littleness.
Peter Simpson
Simpson was another player widely appreciated at Arsenal and player of the year in1969.
My Dad’s strongly held, but possibly highly subjective, opinion that all Arsenal fans knew he was better than Bobby Moore around the seasons we won the double tells you I think that he was a classy, cultured centre-half. A great fit with McLintock, I saw him struggle at times in his later seasons with let’s say, less able CB partners, but he was still an Arsenal man and a class player for many seasons. He is in this team because he did not play for England and Jeff Blockley did. I think some of you will have seen both play for The Arsenal and I hope we can all agree that is an astonishing injustice. Talk about unforgiven, that is nigh on unforgivable.
Thomas Vermaelen
The Verminator made an instant impact in his first half-season after his transfer from Ajax and was widely seen as our next great centre-back. Things did not go to plan after that and we eventually sold him to Barcelona (for a profit, the mugs!). He is I believe not far down the road from me in Kobe right now. I liked watching his whole-hearted approach but he is in this team because at the end of a season when the Arsenal coaches sat down and looked at the goals we conceded over that season they concluded that Vermaelen was culpable for something like 60% of them. That is all fair and proper of course and we were woeful defensively at the time. Later that conclusion was leaked to the press to my huge annoyance. As an ex-HR guy, that is just unprofessional and unacceptable. However, 8 or 9 years later I will accept that these things happen and let it go. Actually, TV5 might not be a bad fit with Simpson at CB !
Bob McNab
Bob McNab was another important player in the first double side, good in the tackle, positionally clever and formed a strong left-hand side for us with Armstrong. He also, long before Charlie Nicholas, turned down Liverpool to join The Arsenal, so a man of impeccable judgment. If you ever stood on his wing at Highbury, you would have heard he was fairly vocal too. Another who was unfathomably unfashionable for England, 4 caps for a man whose only possible rival for a left back spot was Terry Cooper and yet he did not go to Mexico for the World Cup (actually I am cheating a bit here as that was 1970 and I only learned about it 2 or 3 years later). Ridiculous, but I will remember it wholesale later in this article.
Stewart Robson
In 1982 I went to watch us in an away game at Forest who still had a fair side at the time. In the first half we produced the worst 45 minutes I had seen us play at the time and were deservedly, if memory serves, 3-0 down by half time. An 18-year-old Stewart Robson was the single redeeming feature of that afternoon, he was everywhere that day and put many of our more seasoned players to shame (though some of them had none actually). I would have put good money on him being an Arsenal great and England stalwart for many years. Sadly injuries intervened and though he was Player of the Year in 1985, he was never fit for long enough. I have no idea of the rights and wrongs of his bitter relationship with the club since his time at Arsenal TV and actually don’t care, but I hope the future holds some mutual forgiveness and I can read about what a player he already was at 18 rather than his anger at the club and AW.
Paul Davis
In 1988 Paul Davis became the centre of a media storm when he broke the Southampton player Glenn Cockerill’s jaw with, I think, a well-measured right hook. He was caught on the tv replays and became the first player banned on video evidence. He also missed a place in the England team and was never selected again. Davis was not a ‘hard man’ as such but from the abuse heaped on him by the press you would have thought him on the Most Wanted list at that time. The hypocrisy of some of the criticism has always infuriated me but in the spirit of goodwill, I accept the assorted football and some non-football journalists in the press were just nicking a living and I forgive them. Just to add, Paul Davis was a pivotal member of the 90-91 side that only lost once and won many major medals.
Brian Talbot
Signed from Ipswich, he forms a midfield trio in our XI with Robson and Davis all of whom played for us in the 80’s, though Talbot signed in 1979 and famously at the time was I think the first player to win the cup with 2 different teams in consecutive seasons. He is also noted as the last Arsenal player I saw having a beer in the pub after a game (The Silver Bullet opposite Finsbury Park station). His place in the team is down to a mate of mine, Freddie, who for some odd reason took a particular dislike to Talbot or Ten-touch as he used to call him. Whenever we were at the game together there would always be some slight mistake sooner or later followed by a loud shout of “ffs ten-touch, play the ball”. Freddie, mate he wasn’t Liam Brady but he really wasn’t that bad, let it go. Anyway, I forgive you Freddie as we all have our little foibles after all, and years later I never warmed to Limpar, which many have found odd.
Frank Stapleton
Stapleton is the exception in this side as he is the only player to be forgiven for what he did rather than what was done to him. A fine player, though not a prolific goalscorer and by all accounts that I can find a nice fellow. Frank was a man ahead of his time in some ways as he went north for a bucketload of cash – or at least that was how it was perceived by all the Arsenal fans at the time. I went to the next few Arsenal vs Man Utd matches usually with a couple of Man U fans, we’d go our separate ways at the gate and then meet again afterwards. Each time they were amazed at the hatred for Stapleton as he was roundly abused for large parts of the game. To be honest I had happily joined in the chanting and told them we would never forgive Stapleton. Wrongly as it turned out, after all he played more games for us and scored more goals than he ever did for ManUre. Anyway, all is forgiven Frank and I hope you will forgive us the vitriol, which in hindsight was some way over the top.
Lee Chapman
So we come to Lee Chapman, and my own forgiveness. Chapman, who we had signed from Stoke, was a bad fit from the beginning and almost nothing went right. He didn’t actually suit our style of play and to this day I have no idea why we signed him although there are rumours that it was simply because of a 25-yard screamer he scored against us. Anyway, I was sitting in the West Stand for one game and watching us and Chapman in particular struggle in a scrappy game (apologies but I can’t remember who it was against) when we suddenly broke out of defence. The midfield was breaking at speed, the crowd sensed a chance, the noise level rose and then the ball was swiftly moved out to Chapman on the right, and right in front of me. Sadly, he completely missed the ball as tried to control it and then fell over. All around me in the West Stand the crowd didn’t groan or jeer, they just laughed, not a commiserating, empathic sort of laugh but simple contempt as if it was exactly what they’d expected. Chapman looked utterly dejected, like he would actually rather be in hell than on that pitch. Chapman’s look is the only thing I actually remember from that game and to my shame I had laughed too. Not a nice way to have treated a fellow human being and I am sorry Lee.
George Armstrong
There is really no need to write too much about Geordie Armstrong, he is a legend. Like Simpson and McNab he played very few games for England and like them it was scandalous. I have heard the suggestion that Alf Ramsey (an ex-spud) disliked Arsenal and was reluctant to select Arsenal players. I have no idea if that is true, to be honest it seems unlikely, but it is also difficult to see why so few were chosen even in hindsight. Perhaps less so in Armstrong’s case as England often played without recognized wingers at that time. As sadly Sir Alf has passed away he is in no need of my forgiveness and so I will finish by forgiving the FA for not stepping-in and having a word. The FA may feel they are innocent in the matter but as James Coburn told Anthony Quinn at the end of A High Wind in Jamaica “think of all the things you weren’t caught for’.
I haven’t chosen a manager but it would be Bertie Mee as the Arsenal board broke my 10-year-old heart when they fired him. Honourable mentions to Lichsteiner, Feo, Ozil, the great Tony Adams, in fact all of the famous five (where are the knighthoods?) and of course the incomparable Flamini, who have all suffered unjustly down the years but for various reasons could not be included.
And so there you have it, my journey of forgiveness is done. I hope if you have made it this far it provided some amusement, food for thought and reminders of times past. To err is human but to forgive is divine, and as we have seen it is certainly raining men to forgive. Let it go everyone, it’s easy and you’ll feel better.
Finally, it is possible we will have some real, actual football news to report early next week so please keep ‘em peeled on this site and best wishes to you all.
“At home come to that” 😀 😀 😀
Original, very. Entertaining, very. Good thing you didn’t forgive any Spuds though. 😀
fun and funny, matt. a tightrope walk of an idea, too! it will serve well, at least a couple rereadings 🙂
Excellent stuff, Matt. Thank you.
I was convinced, reading the selection criteria in the opening paragraphs I was concerned you would omit two of my own favourites, but sure enough the list included Simpson and Armstrong; two (among many, it must be admitted) of the best never to have played for England I believe.
COYG CUYG
…and here’s a player with a great claim to have been poorly treated – the latest in our long line of Irish stalwarts: Gilbert O’Silver.
Sorry that should have read Gilberto Silva, who is of course Brazillian. I rather liked him at the time and the immensity of his contribution was clear for all to see once he was no longer there. I recall that at the time he left, there was talk of his possibly sharing the captaincy with Gallas and even that he had been promised the armband himself. It’s one of the _very_ few of Arsène Wenger’s decisions that I criticize him for.
Great article Matt and a very interesting look at what might also be called ‘ the underappreciated ‘. Pangloss makes some very good points about some of our most under- appreciated players like ‘ Stan ‘ Simpson and Geordie who was never capped for England . And a great point about Gilberto .
I thought Rimmer was a terrific keeper and my only slight quibble might be with Stewart Robson who was unlucky with injuries but is apparently a real tool and began being one early in his career . George was keen to get rid and given what he achieved subsequently it was good business for us.
Bob McNab let slip one evening that he got injured early in the double season and never let on to Don Howe that he was struggling because he thought Sammy Nelson would take his place ! I think he ended up playing close to sixty games that season . Stapleton was the forerunner of Van Persie and boy did we miss him employing Hankin, White and Hawley upfront . Eventually we signed Chapman who was signed with Woodcock . Chalk and cheese in terms of talent .
Thanks for giving us some terrific food for thought Matt.
pang, i remember when gilberto was out for a while after being an everpresent in the invincibles, he’d broken his back early in 04-05. and i remember thinking, when i heard about he was going to be out at least three months, “that’s it, that’s *our* spine broken”. even though he came back well the following season, 04-05 was never the same in the context of continuing the momentum and run. edu played in midfield that october day against united due to gilberto’s injury, and i wonder if gilberto had been in there that his subtlety of destruction would have won the day.
I always suspected I knew less about football than I had convinced myself that I must know, but never was it proven to me quite so forcefully as the two or three months after Arteta put his compete faith in Mustafi, and Shazam!, Arsenal’s defensive solidify improved right before our eyes. The thing is, I had been looking at Mustafi as Vermaelen revisited and focusing on the ways he might replicate his errors. I always wondered what the Blaugrana Catalans saw in Vermaelen until I realized they signed him as a way to increase Messi’s confidence in practice games. 😉
An excellent and thoroughly entertaining piece, Matt. A nice walk down memory lane too. However I share TTG’s implication that Robson is in truth, unforgivable.
Nice video, bt8@8. Didn’t Gilberto score a very quick goal in a Champions League match one year? One thing though – I’m not sure that a goals video is the best way to judge a bloke who is lauded as a great defensive midfielder.
COYG
Cheers Matt, a very interesting and entertaining post. Enough in there to both agree & disagree with. As TTG says, ‘Stan’ Simpson at the height of his powers was the best CB in England but could never get into the team ahead of Ramsey’s favourites and likewise Geordie should have been a shoe in – who knows why they were never selected.
Stuart Robson & Fat Frank ( Lampard ) both went to the same school – Brentwood High School Essex ( private fee paying ).
I also agree with your view of Paul Davis, a much under rated player who seemed never to fully recover his mojo after the vilification he received in the press.
Pangloss, With a few well taken penalties and timely headers to go along with his rock solid play in defensive midfield Golberto gave us quite the package. 🙂
Very entertaining and for relatively recent followers like us highly informative. TV5 is the only one in this list I have seen playing. He was a good footballer if not the kind of defender that we needed.
Another interesting list would be who spent way too little time with us for one reason or another. Gnabry is the current favorite in that list, but I would also have Von Bronckhorst and Diarra in that list …
Thanks for the kind words bt8, scruz, bath, TTG, Uplympian,
Pangloss and Dr F.
Bath/TTG – I wondered at the time why we had sold Robson and thought
it might be just pulling a fast one on WHU as we knew he would struggle
with injuries. But him being a complete dick would not sit well with GG
and seems very plausible given his later behaviour.
@13 Dr F
An interesting idea – Clive Allen would be the ultimate here
today, gone tomorrow player I suppose!
I thought we sold Petit too soon. And Keown but
he came back. Currently, I am watching Hayden at Newcastle
to see how he develops. I hadn’t expected he would make it there
but he’s doing ok as a kind of win it and give it CM.
Thanks OM – a good read.
Another that immediately springs to mind is Jon Sammels – a favourite of mine and, in my opinion, another whose omission from England sides was hard to fathom. The book “I am Sam” makes this point well although the book overall is a bit rubbish.
I still find it hard to understand why Sammy got such a rough ride from sections of Highbury and I’m not sure I’m ready to forgive them.
I prefer to remember his thunderbolt goals, including the unforgettable Fairs Cup winner against Anderlecht.
UTA.
Noosa @17, the treatment of Jon Sammels by many in the Arsenal crowds of his era is a stain on the reputation of Arsenal fans as bad as that perpertrated in recent years by the morons of AFTV.
Noosa
The call re Sammels is spot -on. The James Durose- Rayner book that Holic featured on here in the past describes his abilities brilliantly and the fans ostracised him during a season when we did the double ! It was appalling treatment for a great club man and a very nice bloke . And he also had a mod haircut that was the envy of all the lads in my form at school !
Re Gilberto , Pangloss again recalls well. He scored after about fourteen seconds or something away to PSV Eindhoven in the Champions League . I thought the best game he had for us was in the Cup Final against Southampton ( that weird day when they closed the roof on the stadium ) . Vieira was injured and Gilberto stepped up in a slightly different role . Which showed just what a versatile and talented player he was . He played in a box to box role and was excellent . He was a player who did what the manager asked him to and did it very well. I think we got him for about £4.5 million . An absolute steal .
Lovely piece Matt. That early seventies double winning side was my first to see in the flesh too, and my two favourite players were probably Bob McNab and Geordie Armstrong. We truly have been blessed with left backs over the years. I still think Kieran Tierney will join that list, after first keeping Saka and then moving him further forward.
Oh and as for Stewart Robson, if I may refer back to my last piece on here, I’m afraid he’s a right Evra. I groan if he’s commentating on a game I’ve switched on. No forgiveness from this quarter I’m afraid.
An ambitious artifice pulled off with aplomb, OM.
bt8@9: I always suspected we confused Vertongen and Vermaelen and ended up buying the wrong one from Ajax by mistake.
The 70-71 double winning team was ridiculously under-capped for the talent it contained. Just 188 caps across the careers of the squad, two-thirds of them accounted for by Pat Rice and Sammy Nelson for Northern Ireland and John Roberts for Wales. Of that trio, only Pat Rice would be considered a starter for the double side.
Nelson Northern Ireland 51 caps
Rice Northern Ireland 49
Roberts Wales 22
Storey England 19
Kennedy England 17
Graham Scotland 12
McLintock Scotland 9
McNab England 4
Wilson Scotland 2
Radford England 2
George England 1
Simpson England 0
Armstrong England 0
Sammels England 0
Kelly Scotland 0
Marinello Scotland 0
Barnett England 0
I’ve just watched back the extended highlights of the 1979 Cup final. I haven’t seen this much of that game for many years. Couple of thoughts:
1) How good was Liam Brady? For many of us who saw him play (and he left in 81, so that’s coming up to 40 years ago) he was the best Arsenal player we saw until DB10 came along. When us aged few saw a 16 year old Jack Wilshere for the first time, so many of us thought it was a reincarnated Chippy Brady. Whether LJW could have produced that right foot cross for the second goal in that game, I’m not so sure, but the mazy all left foot run that preceded it was trade mark Brady and Jack.
2) Both teams had a crap centre half each, our Willie Young and their Gordon McQueen. David O’Leary on the other hand was all culture.
3) Pat Rice had a dodgy day and wasn’t as good as I remember.
4) Rixy did nothing all afternoon until he put in that killer cross (set up by Brady natch).
5) The distribution from both goalies was excellent and by hand, keeping the game moving quickly.
6) Both Stapleton and Sunderland worked really well together asa pair.
7) It’s a shame Terry Neill set off a very smart suit with a tie which ended at the third shirt button.
8) I think I had the bri nylon track suit Don Howe was sporting.
9) I was in the middle of University finals when I watched this game, in my student room in hall. I got a bollocking from the porters for “making so much noise when people are trying to study”.
Happy days.
C100
I taped the game and I watched it last night. I was at the match with two mates who I stood on the North Bank with most weeks. It was a bakingly hot day but the pitch had received a soaking , so it was very tiring. At the time I felt we were in control of the match but several times they could have scored in either half. We sat deep ( as Cloughie said ) confident that we could catch them on the break. Sadly Willie Young had a shocker as he did against Ipswich and against West Ham the following year. He really did look like a donkey and Jordan beat him almost every time. Jennings was calmness itself, he was a wonderful keeper.
Our three Irish lads were superb, especially Brady.Every time he got the ball he threatened danger and Stapleton was a real handful for their defence. It’s hard not to think bringing Steve Walford on disrupted the side as the wheels fell off immediately afterwards.
My conclusion is that our name was on the Cup that year. It was deeply stressful to watch it but as I explained to Alan I arrived home with a giant red bear ( Liam Bear of course ) who still sits in my loft. I also taught my two year old daughter – ‘ She wears a Yellow Ribbon ‘ much to her mother and grandmother’s chagrin and her grandfather’s pride and delight!
On my way out of Wembley that day I ran into Frank McLintock who had gone to the match ( at his own expense ). Needless to say he was delighted .
Very, very, very good is the answer to your first question, C100.
https://www.wsc.co.uk/stories/13731-from-the-archive-how-liam-brady-s-drop-of-the-shoulder-changed-arsenal
A brilliant piece Ned – never seen it before!
Thanks Noosa, Ned, C100
It was a tricky piece though it
seemed simple when I started
😃
Thanks for that list Ned, no
correlation between talent and
number of caps won
None at all, it would seem, OM.
Noosa is so far away you could almost lose a Gooner down there. 😉
What’s the Noosa report, Noosa?
Ned @ 25: thanks for that link. Some back-handed compliments as well in that article 🙂
Watching the highlight of the 5-0 spursilation is pure joy. That goal by Liam Brady is just beautiful …
And a couple of assists that were Ozilesque in the perfection of the weighting of the pass, Dr F.
Sounds as if the Premiership clubs are deeply spit over finishing the season, with those clubs at risk of relegation parking the bus in the hope of getting the season voided. Assuming the bottom six vote against finishing the season to be sure of avoiding relegation, they need to secure only one more vote to deny the necessary two-thirds majority for resuming play. That could come from Southampton or Newcastle. Although both look to be safely above the drop zone, they have nothing to gain from finishing the season and only downside risk from a late implosion. Or from us Chelsea or the neightbours, who would all get Champions League football next season if it was based on last season’s final positions (assuming Man City is banned in our case). Or even from City themselves as they would not lose their title to the Scousers. My money would be on Levy’s lot to do the slimy thing.
How about Everton Ned, just out of a justified spite of their rivals?
bt8@30
Noosa is a tourist town so with no tourists, either international or interstate, the town is pretty quiet. Queensland restrictions are gradually being eased but it’s going to be a while before a real sense of “new normality” returns. In the meantime I’ll keep an eye out for any stray Gooners to make sure they’re not too lost.
UTA
Indeed, bt8b. Never underestimate the power of jealousy.
I don’t want to be alarmist but is the brain aneurysm that killed the 19-year-old Atalanta midfielder Andrea Rinaldi an example of the strokes that Covid-19 is inducing in young people? If that turns out to be the case, resuming football would seem to be far too high a risk.
@33 Ned
I think the TV money and losing
700m was one driver but
apparently even if they finish
the season 300m in penalties may
be due. Although discussions with
Sky, BT and Amazon are ongoing.
Of course the PL owners are all
decent, honourable people so I’m
sure a solution will be fou…..
Oh.
Thanks for the report, Noosa. Those of us in the relative hinterlands need to be careful not to let our guard down because we are slightly behind the curve of the disease. The media warn of the second wave but the first wave is still upon us here in Minnesota. In the meantime birds have taken over from cars as the predominant noisemakers in the neighborhood, and I’m not complaining about that change however temporary.
OM@38: I saw that about the penalty payment for not finishing the season and did wonder if that wasn’t the PL doing a bit of scaremongering among the wavering clubs. But then as you say they are all decent honourable people….Oh.
Ned,
You raise an interesting and worrying point about the death of Rinaldi ( of which I was not aware) .I’m afraid that in these frightening times we need to accept that there will need to be an element of risk in whatever we do unless we get an effective vaccine relatively soon.
Much as I love the game I don’t regard restarting the season as anything like the biggest priority for society given the massive issues we face.
But it does smack of a diversionary tactic by a UK government who with their advisers have massively mishandled this crisis and who are not above a crafty dose of populism to distract the public from the Horlicks they have made of the proposed lockdown release .
I’m far from certain we won’t find it a massive anti-climax without the backdrop to the games including a crowd but I think some degree of authenticity may come from playing home and away games in the normal venues. Unfortunately there are many idiots who will undoubtedly turn up outside grounds thereby necessitating the diversion of precious police resources . Perhaps I can morph into a pseudo-fascist in this respect and suggest on the spot fines of at least £1000 for anyone who does this . Frankly I’d be happy to scrap the season ( which was a crock of shite from our perspective ) , admit two sides from the Championship and start again in late August but I accept the financial consequences of this might be very serious. Maybe the TV companies could be given the extra games free of charge ?
TTG@41: A YouGov poll from May 1 shows that more than four out of five in the UK think the government should cancel large sporting events, so you seem to be in the majority, and I would join you there. Let’s be realistic. The current season will be a financial disaster for the clubs whether it is completed or not. So write the season off now, get some sense of closure and look forward to a late autumn start for the new season, even if it has to be truncated to fit in the international tournaments in the summer of 2021. The 2020-21 season is the last of the current TV deal. It should be straightforward to accommodate any adjustments for lost games into the next three-year deal. By then, clubs will have their match day revenue back and will be in a better position to absorb lower TV-rights money.
Arsenal mining Scruz’s material, or just coincidence?
https://www.arsenal.com/news/ve-day-75-arsenal-and-second-world-war
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, bt8.
both arsenal and online gooner did things looking back at ww2, but in the main because of the 75th anniversary of ve day.
i didn’t even think to mention it!
I’ve been reading up on the
situation in the Championship
and Leagues One and Two.
The Championship are still keen
to finish the season but League
One and Two have almost given
up. Financially playing behind
closed doors with the extra cost
of testing and no match day
income looks impossible for
the smaller clubs and some are
already releasing players.
What the Championship do will
I suppose depend to a degree on
what the PL. Be a terrible shame
if Leeds and WBA didn’t come up.
Though I never minded West Brom
until my sister married one of their
supporters.
On the other hand I was looking
forward to Luton’s relegation as I
will never forgive them for 1987.
In the PL itself it seems neutral
venues are off the table as when
the Police said neutral venues are
the only option they meant unless
you prefer another option in which
case they won’t be the only
option.
Notices the defence on their heels. Slides the ball with laser precision inside the faltering fullback to ……
You rang?
The new fifty
Well in Sauntering Striker.
Well in for the half-ton, SS. You seemed to have all the time in the world…
OM@47: Promotion and relegation is going to be a dog’s dinner unless the PL, Championship and Leagues One and Two all do the same thing about ending or completing the season.
I think so Ned.
One option if only PL and
Championship go ahead is
for League One and League
Two to have the usual plays off
based on current league places
or points per game.
Well in for the demi-ton Sauntering Striker. Stylishly done – indeed your style seems almost familiar. Bergkampesque assist there CM100. Hard luck Mofo Midfielder.
New names all over the place in here today. But are they new ‘holic’s?
Perhaps forensics will know, amazing
what a good analyst will find
Hmmm, a taste for alliteration and mystery ….
Thanks C100 for your precisely fashioned assist. DD, thanks for the dynamic plaudits. I prefer to call it the semi-ton though, it being better for my alliterative prospects, but of course I understand why you might prefer to use demi-ton. Greetings, GG.
Galloping Goalkeeper really had to get on his horse to save that one, right in the top corner. Of course the horse’s nose getting in the way could have helped too. 🙂
On his off days, GG has a ‘mare.
oh, gg@58, forensics knows. we’re just keeping quiet. 😀
sauntering striker, how many semi-tons in a scale? or was that just intonation? i must say you have a pretty equal temperament…
@58 GG
Ain’t that the truth GG, straight
from the horse’s mouth.
Neglected to say, RIP Little Richard, a true giant of rock n roll n rhythm n blues n all that. Great talent and huge impact.
It seems unconscionable that the Premier League would require players to return to work in what will be still potentially dangerous circumstances and at the same time sign a document that absolves their employers, the clubs, of legal liability if they catch Covid-19.
Knowing nothing personally about whether the players are unionized, I would say that if they are not then this is an outstanding example of why they should be. On the other hand, if they already are unionized then their representatives should be doing their job representing the players so the players are not put into the position of seeming any less enthusiastic to “take one for the team” than any of their teammates.
Hi everybody, very nice new place you opened here. Mind if I sit in a corner, watch and bark from time to time?
That’s what I did over at Mr. Fabers place as well.
I’ll have a pint of lager if that’s ok
Hey there Datsyuk, I remember you from Dave’s place! Very glad to see you made it over here, please do pull up a chair and imbibe to your liking. We were wondering when you would get here! 😉
Naturally enough, Blogs reports today that “Players have concerns regarding exactly what it is they are being asked to do – although this should be clarified when training protocols are decided – as well as general worries about health and safety.” My guess is the general issues about health and safety are paramount in their minds, as they would be in mine if I were in their place.
Well, I wasn’t allowed to go to a restaurant or a bar for the last seven weeks so I drank at home 🙂
Clever strategy in its simplicity. 🙂
bt8@68: Professional footballers in England and Wales do have a union — the Professional Footballers’ Association (PFA). It is affiliated to the TUC (the UK equivalent of the AFL-CIO), and to FIFPro, the confederation of international football players’ unions. The PFA is very active.
Welcome back, Datsyuk. Glad you have found your way here. What worked for you in the old place should work just fine here. Lager for you on the bar.
UK government has green-lighted a return of the Premiership in June. Too soon?
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/52665805
Delighted to see you Datsyuk. Our aim is to make this place feel like the old bar, albeit under new management due to tragic circumstances. Sup up and feel free to chip in when you feel like it.
@76
Quite possibly too soon Ned.
So far the PL have been going
along trying to get players,
coaches, doctors, the police
and the government onside.
Monday seems to be decision
day for the PL clubs themselves
but we’ve heard that before.
Two other players involved are
the FA and UEFA. The FA have
said they won’t agree any
decision that voids the season,
though you’d have thought
the last 3 or 4 months would have
taught any authorities the danger
of saying “won’t”.
And UEFA want a decision by
25th May as they try to organise
European competitions – not sure
that deadline is real either as it
seems likely that at least some
countries will not be able to meet
it.
However, both the FA’s statement
and UEFA’s deadline do make it
more difficult for the relegation
threatened PL clubs to play for
time in order to get the season
declared void. Or those currently
in the bottom 3 anyway.
A couple of weeks ago I thought
the chances of finishing the
season were less than 50% but
they seem to be above half now.
Wish we had a better idea of the meaning of “significance” in this paragraph of the article Ned linked @76:
“It was significant today that despite continued police concerns over the risk of fans gathering outside grounds once matches resume, the government reinforced its support for the resumption of matches.”
significant or tragic, or exactly what, and what do the doctors say about allowing gatherings of rowdy and drunk fans in the streets that the police may be unable to control?
League Two have now cancelled
their remaining fixtures. They
plan to use a weighted ppg
system to calculate the final
tables and adjust for any home/
away bias but it’s not finalised
yet. Hopefully, the monks stand
ready with abaci to hand for
calculating the final PL table if
necessary.
Play-offs will go ahead though.
Welcome Datsyuk. Delighted to see you back !
I don’t know if it’s me but I’ve lost interest in Project Restart and I think it’s going to be such a pale imitation of the real thing that it will actually harm the game. And they will have to have a very active bleeper to cut out the swearing !
I remember in 1966 we lost 3-0 at home to Leeds and the crowd was just over 4,000.They lit bonfires on the terraces between choruses of ‘ Wright must go’. I didn’t go because it was a school night but I remember speaking to someone who did. His words were ‘ You’re’. not to supposed to watch football in an empty stadium. It kills the spectacle . ‘
Football is going to struggle to win back some of its public and these artificial ghost matches won’t cut it.
I’d move to next season and hope we can resume in some form that is much less contrived
welcome back, datsyuk!
for today have a look at the arsena twitter feed. celebrating the invincible season, there are no L’s…
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/coronavirus-heres-what-sports-looked-like-during-the-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic-184042838.html
interesting take on the usa sporting scene during the 1918 pandemic.
With the caveat that we don’t know how the weighting for home and away games outstanding will be done, the only substantial change to the League Two table as a result of using points per game will be to make Swindon Town champions — which might elict a broad smile from high above.
y’all do realize that the invincibles year brought christmas to the premier league.
you know, the first no L?
scruz@85
😆👍
Sad to hear Kenny Sansom is
in hospital (not Covid19 but the
actual reason is not specified)
Get well soon Kenny.
an interview with UE in The
Guardian online sports section
today – sorry for some reason
I can’t paste the link but it’s
a free to read paper.
People can make their own minds
up about UE’s interview. But he wants
to get back into football and so I’ll
wish him all the best
First No L Scruz? I have a feeling Cynic is waiting for the first No Ozil. 🙂
bt8, as always, right? 🙂
do i sense a run to the ton?
Returns to training by himself
and runs pointlessly around the
pitch. Feels like David Batty
Gets hamstring twinge but not
allowed in Arsenal treatment
room as Tierney has already
booked all the slots
Welcomes back 4 chums to
train with hooray
Practices using social distancing
with 4 chums but is Arsenal
defender so doesn’t see any
difference from usual
All my friends back for training
– hooray
But no tackling allowed 😱
Of course is Arsenal defender
so doesn’t……
Run to ton is done.
Training finished and off to the
first match back where The
Arsenal……
Ghosts in with the defence asleep and bangs the ball into the empty net. Whirls away to find their are no spectators to roar with delight and sing his name. Trudges back to the centre circle before going over to thank OM who did a great job mesmering thevopostion and giving the assist.
OM refuses a congratulatory hug
but shouts a happy “get in you
fucker”, which echoes round
empty stadium. OM is castigated
on Sky Sports 😄
Well in for the ton, Uply.
And a long and lonely assist by OM.
The Guardian stay about Unai Emery
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/may/15/unai-emery-arsenal-couldnt-protect-me-truth-is-i-felt-alone
Emery takes a big dig at Sanllehi and Edu in that interview. And leaves open a big ‘what if’ had Ramsey stayed.
That damned elusive Ramsey.
Never there when you need him.
But I do agree Ramsey’s
injury set us back last season.
UE played Xhaka, Ramsey with
Ozil in front of them and we
turned our dodgy Xmas/New
Year form around for a bit.
Then Aaron got injured – but
that happened almost every
season.
Good stuff, Matt
although as usual I’m late to the party.
Interesting read and it is, after all, all about opinions. One player I always felt suffered unjustly at the hands of our fans was Jon Sammels. In fact, I’d have gone a million miles for one of his goals ……..
By the way, I refuse to get involved in discussions about the idiotic, super defensive – in every possible way – Europa League over Premier League and therefore Champions League prioritising, player blaming, player ruining, out of position playing, formation juggling, tactic meddling and muddling, multiple captain choosing, fans blaming tosser, that was Unai Emery – ‘cos I’ll probably be deleted.
Oh …. I didn’t 😏
I thought Emery had a small dig at the whole Arsenal setup with a couple of references to the way “Arsène did it all”. I have a lot more sympathy for him after reading the article than before. That said, and whatever the reason was, the team wasn’t getting the results under him so it was time for him to go.
CUYG
Link to Gruaniad article.
Thanks Trev.
I never saw Sammels play for
Arsenal, not live anyway, but a
couple of people mentioned him
as unfairly maligned.
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